What If...... Jon didn't join the Night's Watch?

[tyrion_skywalker]

He would have been sent to one of the Starks bannermen, maybe the Umbers, Karstarks, or Cerwyns. Ned may have set up a marriage for him to a lower noble's daughter. But he would have gone south and probably would have died at the rw or in battle. But he would have killed a bunch of folks.

[Dire-Lion]

Gallows Knight- I think you are being a bit too optimistic, Tywin would have made sure that the red wedding or at least some event like it happened. Jon would definitely have died protecting his brother if he were there. Also I always assumed that Robb was given a love potion, which the book also implies is more of a lust potion, which caused him to sleep with Jeyne. And that his mistake was breaking his oath to the Freys by marrying Jeyne afterwards.

[GallowsKnight]

Gallows Knight- I think you are being a bit too optimistic, Tywin would have made sure that the red wedding or at least some event like it happened. Jon would definitely have died protecting his brother if he were there. Also I always assumed that Robb was given a love potion, which the book also implies is more of a lust potion, which caused him to sleep with Jeyne. And that his mistake was breaking his oath to the Freys by marrying Jeyne afterwards.

The thing is I can't see a way Robb's campaign or plot could go any worse. At some point Jon would have had to make some positive change. So even if Robb was hopped up on a lust/love potion, Jon could slap some sense into him.

Tywin was a cunning bastard but he got quite lucky. The sharks (Frey, Bolton, Karstark) only started circling once Robb started losing.

[Minsc]

The thing is I can't see a way Robb's campaign or plot could go any worse. At some point Jon would have had to make some positive change.

Why does hot-headed and politically unaware Jon have to bring about some positive changes and not just more negative changes?

[Sonnet]

Well he wouldn't have been left in Winterfell with Cat, and I don't think he'd have gone to Kings Landing as Ned would not have kept him so close to Robert, plus I think Neds sworn to keep Jon safe, and no one is safe in the Red Keep. Plus, as a bastard I think Ned wouldn't think it proper to take him to court.

I think he would have gone to one of Neds trusted bannermen. Wouldn't it have been interesting if he'd been sent to Neds most trusted friend, Howland Reed? Perhaps in that instance he'd have been kept at Greywater and away from war, otherwise I think he'd have gone south to fight with Rob. He could have stayed at Riverrun or been sent off somewhere else when the Red Wedding occured, would he really have been welcome at a Tully wedding?

[GallowsKnight]

Why does hot-headed and politically unaware Jon have to bring about some positive changes and not just more negative changes?

But what is the more negative change other that there's just one more potential body in the Red Wedding versus a whole spectrum of different better outcomes.

But Jon brings a few things, he's a much needed confidant and friend for Robb, who throughout his entire campaign is searching for them (Theon, Olvar, the Westerling boy). He's another son of Ned's stark to rally around and finally he doubles the number of semi-magical direwolves in the Northern army.

[Steve Moss II]

I doubt he would've been given a command of troops. Can you imagine the Greatjon or Rickard Karstark serving under a bastard? He would've most likely stayed with Robb in his guard.

The North does not consider bastardy quite the same as the South. It appears to carry less stigma.

And the bastard son of "The Ned" would probably carry a whole lot of social status based on that relationship alone. If he appeared competent (and I think he would have), he would have more or less written his own ticket.

I think Jon would not have gone to KL but would have left WF. I suspect he would have been sent to the Manderlys to serve as a squire, personally.

Ultimately, I think he would have joined Robb's army and would have been trusted with a command of some sort.

Which may have saved Robb's life. The text is fairly clear that Jon's eyes "missed little" and as a bastard he has a bit more mature of a world view than Robb. I suspect he would have cautioned Robb against Bolton and Theon, and would have advised of a firmer stance against the Freys (like taking hostages when they left his service).

The lone wolf dies but the pack survives. Robb and Jon together would have been much more formidable, than Robb (or Jon) alone.

[Dire-Lion]

But what is the more negative change other that there's just one more potential body in the Red Wedding versus a whole spectrum of different better outcomes.

But Jon brings a few things, he's a much needed confidant and friend for Robb, who throughout his entire campaign is searching for them (Theon, Olvar, the Westerling boy). He's another son of Ned's stark to rally around and finally he doubles the number of semi-magical direwolves in the Northern army.

But as a bastard, the best thing Catelyn would let him do would be to be part of the personal guard. He could never lead an army or treat with people, as sending a bastard would be an insult (even if Robb legitimizes Jon, nobody would recognize it until after Robb wins). Jon's sense of honor is much like Ned's, so honestly I don't see how him counseling Robb would lead to different decisions. Jaime dying early would be very bad for the Starks in the long term because Tywin or Joffery would definitely kill Sansa and a fake Arya at King's landing.

[GallowsKnight]

But as a bastard, the best thing Catelyn would let him do would be to be part of the personal guard. He could never lead an army or treat with people, as sending a bastard would be an insult (even if Robb legitimizes Jon, nobody would recognize it until after Robb wins). Jon's sense of honor is much like Ned's, so honestly I don't see how him counseling Robb would lead to different decisions. Jaime dying early would be very bad for the Starks in the long term because Tywin or Joffery would definitely kill Sansa and a fake Arya at King's landing.

Robb is the King here not Catelyn. He makes a lot of decisions that displeases her. And Steve Mosse II points out the advantages of his presence above.

[Arya kiddin']

Then he too would have had a wolf for his head in afterlife.

[David Selig]

The North does not consider bastardy quite the same as the South. It appears to carry less stigma.

What do you base this on? The worst things about bastards said in this series come from Northerners like Roose Bolton.

Robb was quite naive in some areas, but even if he isn't stupid enough to give a 15 year old bastard important duties over his top bannermen.

[Minsc]

The North does not consider bastardy quite the same as the South. It appears to carry less stigma.

Not really, seeing how neither Larence Snow nor Ramsay seem like they were treated better then any southern bastard.

Which may have saved Robb's life. The text is fairly clear that Jon's eyes "missed little" and as a bastard he has a bit more mature of a world view than Robb. I suspect he would have cautioned Robb against Bolton and Theon, and would have advised of a firmer stance against the Freys (like taking hostages when they left his service).

Jon isn't that much more mature seeing how before Noye knocks some sense into him he was entitled little brat, something that the noble men of the North wouldn't put up with from a bastard. There is no reason that Jon would have any better sense of Roose and Balon's true nature then Robb or the other northmen. Moreover, I doubt that Robb could demand that the Frey give him hostages after he has dishonored him without engaging in open treachery.

[TalalOfDorne]

One more victim in the Red Wedding.

[Greymoon]

What about...the wall would have fallen, Mance Rayder would still be King, and Stannis would already have lost his crown?

Edit: I meant the Night's Watch, not the wall proper.

[Northbound]

Two things and they both lead to one place. Cat bites her lip and allows him to stay in WF, war starts and he dies at RW. Cat still wants him gone and goes to one of the North' Bannermen. The Banners get called to war and Jon unites with Robb and they die at RW.