Death Reasons of King Robb

[Maxpey]

Robb was a dead man the moment Roose Bolton decided the Young Wolf couldn't prevail in TWOTFK. Whether it was a stray arrow while hunting or some other event, I believe Bolton would have engineered Robb's assassination one way or another.

If you want to blame Theon's taking Winterfell as the even that caused Roose to lose faith, I won't argue with you.

[Erkan12]

If you want to blame Theon's taking Winterfell as the even that caused Roose to lose faith, I won't argue with you.

This quote explains lot :

Brienne: King Robb has won every battle,

Roose: Won every battle, while losing the Freys, the Karstarks, Winterfell, and the north.

He considered the situation, lost of Winterfell was important as Freys and Karstarks lost for him.

[Maxpey]

This quote explains lot :

He considered the situation, lost of Winterfell was important as Freys and Karstarks lost for him.

I may be wrong, but I believe Bolton had decided that Robb's was a lost cause once Theon took Winterfell. As we all know Bolton is not the kind of man to be on the wrong side of a losing battle, I am sure he was planning on assassinating Robb even before Robb "betrayed" the Freys and the Karstarks (in their minds, not mine.)

[AegonTargaryen]

Again, the plot to betray Robb started before Jaime's release and Cat's suggestion of another marriage. And, btw, it would have happened one way or another. If it wasn't for marriage you obviously blame Cat for, Boltons and Freys would have betrayed him somewhere else.

Tywin wouldn't of gone through with RW with his prized son sitting in a Riverrun dungeon.

[Mladen]

Tywin wouldn't of gone through with RW with his prized son sitting in a Riverrun dungeon.

Actually, we know planning began before Jaime was released. Even in ACoK.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Tywin wouldn't of gone through with RW with his prized son sitting in a Riverrun dungeon.

Cat wasn't to blame.

Edmure was to blame since he sent ravens to everyone saying that Jaime was an escaped prisoner which wasn't the truth.

Jaime was supposed to be traded as a hostage, if that was the message I don't think Roose would have taken the chance to betray Robb.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

“Three,” he said, “so the message will be certain to reach Lord Bolton. By river or road, the way from Riverrun to King’s Landing must needs take them close by Harrenhal.” “Harrenhal.” The very word seemed to darken the room. Horror thickened her voice as she said, “Edmure, do you know what you have done?” “Have no fear, I left your part out. I wrote that Jaime had escaped, and offered a thousand dragons for his recapture.” Worse and worse, Catelyn thought in despair. My brother is a fool. Unbidden, unwanted, tears filled her eyes. “If this was an escape,” she said softly, “and not an exchange of hostages, why should the Lannisters give my daughters to Brienne?” “It will never come to that. The Kingslayer will be returned to us, I have made certain of it.” “All you have made certain is that I shall never see my daughters again. Brienne might have gotten him to King’s Landing safely . . . so long as no one was hunting for them. But now . . .”

Clearly it was not Cat's fault, if Jaime wasn't known as an escaped prisoner, but rather a hostage for exchange the Lannisters wouldn't have done the RW as Tywin takes blood seriously and at that time tyrion was the one running things in KL so he would have given Sansa.

[AegonTargaryen]

Actually, we know planning began before Jaime was released. Even in ACoK.

Yea I know but Tywin wouldn't of pulled the trigger. Once Tywin knows that Jaime is safely in Harrenhal and on his way home he gives the green light.

[Mountain Tribesman]

Robb is partially responsible for the Red Wedding, due to his poor handling of his betrothal and of the Karstark situation, however I too believe that betrayal was in the works even before those things. Theon certainly had a role to play with his feinted murder of Bran and Rickon, while Rodrik's poor strategic moves hurt Robb's position even further.

On a larger scale, Greatjon Umber declaring Robb King in the North was a foolish move. It instantly robbed Robb (hehe) of potential allies in the south, most notably Stannis. Had Robb simply declared for Stannis after Renly's demise, they could've taken King's Landing together from two directions and crushed the Lannisters.

And let's not forget that Robb was what, 16? That deceitful bit** of a mother who sent her daughter Jeyne to Robb when he was at the Crag knew what she was doing, as was Tywin... a guy who could't win the war through force of arms, so he opted for murder and deceit instead.

[Mladen]

Yea I know but Tywin wouldn't of pulled the trigger. Once Tywin knows that Jaime is safely in Harrenhal and on his way home he gives the green light.

Bolton counted on Jaime to exonerate him for his maimed hand. He was already planning to go to wedding, so I believe plans were already been made. It didn't have anything to do with Jaime... Tywin knew nothing about Jaime until he left Harrenhal and Bolton informed him. By that time, all the plans were made, and Bolton was already married to Fat Walda while he was in Twins... This all gives us clues that RW was organized during Fat Walda/Roose's wedding.

[AegonTargaryen]

Bolton counted on Jaime to exonerate him for his maimed hand. He was already planning to go to wedding, so I believe plans were already been made. It didn't have anything to do with Jaime... Tywin knew nothing about Jaime until he left Harrenhal and Bolton informed him. By that time, all the plans were made, and Bolton was already married to Fat Walda while he was in Twins... This all gives us clues that RW was organized during Fat Walda/Roose's wedding.

I agree that plans had been made to assassinate Robb long before Jaime had been captured. But I'm arguing that Tywin would not execute the plan until Jaime was safely out of Riverrun.

When Tywin received news that Jaime had escaped the plan (previously prepared mind you) began to be put in motion, and when Tywin learned that Jaime was in Harrenhal, he gave the go ahead.

[Chaircat Meow]

Is there are special reason the OP doesn't want people to bring Robb into it?

Our intro to the old lord Frey, in GoT, does paint him as a peevish old man excessively concerned with slights. His reasons for flipping to the Starks are expressed through saying Stannis and Tywin are 'bungholes,' too noble to shit, look down on him etc. No one will marry his family, take fosterlings, and he is very displeased about it. Writing out his fury at his daughter being spurned as the catalyst in Robb's demise is not wise, as it is complete accord with old Frey's character. Why on earth was lord Tywin so pleased with the news of the marriage as well, if it wasn't vital in bringing about Robb's destruction?

Lets not forget, even if Roose was working to betray Robb, and had him assassinated, unless they killed or captured the northern lords at the same time, as well as taking out the army, you just wind up with king Jon Stark I and Roose is finished etc. The marriage of Edmure and Roslin really was the perfect time to break the northern kingdom at one stroke and it wouldn't have happened had Robb been able to control his penis (or his conscience, I guess).

[Mladen]

I agree that plans had been made to assassinate Robb long before Jaime had been captured. But I'm arguing that Tywin would not execute the plan until Jaime was safely out of Riverrun.

When Tywin received news that Jaime had escaped the plan (previously prepared mind you) began to be put in motion, and when Tywin learned that Jaime was in Harrenhal, he gave the go ahead.

But that still doesn't change one important fact. Plan was already made. So, whether it was RW, or on some battlefield, or in some other way, Robb would have been betrayed... Jaime being released or not doesn't change the fact that they have already betrayed Robb.

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree that plans had been made to assassinate Robb long before Jaime had been captured. But I'm arguing that Tywin would not execute the plan until Jaime was safely out of Riverrun.

When Tywin received news that Jaime had escaped the plan (previously prepared mind you) began to be put in motion, and when Tywin learned that Jaime was in Harrenhal, he gave the go ahead.

No. Tywin got the news of Jaime's escape almost as soon as he was back in the capital. The RW was still on the drawing board, if that. It came together in about 2-3 weeks after tBoBWB, while Tyrion was recovering from his wounds.

There is no sign Jaime's arrival in HH was any kind of go ahead, or that Jaime being a captive would have upset the plan. The Freys would have been told to secure more hostages to trade for Jaime. That's all.

[Ludd]

obb was playing the game of thrones and like any player, he made mistakes.

Overall Robb was a 15 year old boy, in command far too early and without strong advisors around him.

A series of events all conspired many of them Robb's fault

1. Robb should not have gone to war in the South so precipitously. He should perhaps have sent someone to KL and tired to TALK to NED for some advice.

2. He should NOT have trusted Theon- Both Ned and Cat KNEW he was a threat, but Robb did not. This lack of judgement for Robb was shown in Bran 1 where Jon was the MUCH better judge of Theon than Robb. it is part of Robb's happy nature to be so trusting.

3. Rodrik certainly left the castle undefended which was an error, although Thoen was NOT expected

4. Once Theon took Winterfell and after the apparent execution of Bran and Rickon, Robb's fate was sealed. removing Robb left winterfell open

5. There is a major mystical unknown in the story that is critical but still unclear. This was the moment that Bolton switched. Now he was at Harrenhall with the book that Arya saw - something was in that book- something found at Harrenhall, by Bolton. We are yet to know but I assume it is VERY dark.

6. Catelyn releasing Jaime, weakened Robb with everyone including the Karstarks

7 While Robb was trying to be Ned when he executed Karstark, it was politically stupid. He did not have the credibility for this act. He should have sent him to the wall

8. Catelyn when she made the deal with the Freys should have had a better grasp of Robb's true nature ie the ease of the Jeyne thing

9. Edmure and his poor tactics

10. Robb married Jeyne,

11. Robb was set up by Tywin, who understood Robb the boy, better than his mother. Tywin KNEW that Robb the boy would choose Jeyne's honour over Stark Honour, I suspect because Ned had done something similar at 18 or so. Tywin understood how knightly, lordly, boys think and feel. Robb was a wrapped up in the image as was Sansa. Knight look after vulnerable girls. You could blame them but they are just CHILDREN.

[KingofSothoryos]

Robb's death had nothing to do with any of the decisions he made before deciding what to do after he hears about the sack of Winterfell. He had the choice between continuing his campaign and capturing Casterly Rock and Lannisport (he was 3 days from them) and trusting his Northern Lords to clean out the Ironmen (which there seems to have been plenty who didn't go south with Robb) or journey back himself as fast as he could (there must always be a Stark in Winterfell) to reclaim his seat and defend his realm, instead of attending weddings to win back untrustworthy friends.

I would have continued on to Casterly Rock and Lannisport, sacked those cities and seized their gold mines, robbing the Lannisters of their main source of power and put Tywin in the same boat as him, having lost his seat. I would have continued to clear out the Riverlands and prepared to engage Tywin's next attack. I would have seen the Ironmen invasion as more of a diversion from the true war, so I wouldn't have prioritized getting back to the North. I also wouldn't have prioritized winning back the Freys, so I wouldn't have even been at the Red Wedding! With the rest of the Riverlords behind him, I would have leaned on the Freys and maybe besieged the Twins for safe crossing.

But if Robb prioritized getting back to the North, why did he waste time with a wedding when his castle is being put to the torch and his smallfolk to the sword? Robb should never have trusted the Freys after he broke his word, knowing what everyone says about Walder Frey and slights to his family. He could have gotten back to the North without crossing at the Twins. You have to cross the Green Fork at the Twins if you're coming south from Winterfell to avoid the swamps of the Neck to get to Riverrun, but coming North from Riverrun, you can go up the west coast, past Seaguard which was still loyal to Robb. From there he could have continued up to Flints Finger and taken a few ships to get his leadership back in the North while leaving the bulk of his forces in the Riverlands to hold his gains. Once back in the North, he could have raised the men necessary to clean out the Ironmen on his march to Winterfell before rejoining the offensive.

He could have avoided the Twins and been safe back home, without anyone saying he sent men to war and didn't go himself. I don't think Robb truly understood his value as the only free living Stark, and should have done everything to keep himself safe at that point. Either that or he should have pressed the war on to keep his momentum and weaken his main enemy rather than give them time to regroup and plot like they did.

[Sansa_Stark]

I blame bad advice and decision making from Catelyn. Releasing Jaime and being against Jon's legitimation. If she just stayed at WF the RW would not have happened.

[AegonTargaryen]

But that still doesn't change one important fact. Plan was already made. So, whether it was RW, or on some battlefield, or in some other way, Robb would have been betrayed... Jaime being released or not doesn't change the fact that they have already betrayed Robb.

Okay, don't disagree with that.

No. Tywin got the news of Jaime's escape almost as soon as he was back in the capital. The RW was still on the drawing board, if that. It came together in about 2-3 weeks after tBoBWB, while Tyrion was recovering from his wounds.

There is no sign Jaime's arrival in HH was any kind of go ahead, or that Jaime being a captive would have upset the plan. The Freys would have been told to secure more hostages to trade for Jaime. That's all.

Do you have p #s for that? Not patronizing you, genuinely curious. IIRC Tywin knew Jaime had escaped and was doing everything he could to bring him back.

And no matter what hostages Walder had, Tywin would never see Jaime again if the Blackfysh had him.

[Chaircat Meow]

Do you have p #s for that? Not patronizing you, genuinely curious. IIRC Tywin knew Jaime had escaped and was doing everything he could to bring him back.

And no matter what hostages Walder had, Tywin would never see Jaime again if the Blackfysh had him.

Well not off the top of my head, no. But you need to look at the first meeting between Jaime and Tywin in SoS. Jaime's release, which Tywin says he knew about only two days after it happened (from Varys) came about roughly the same time as the BoBWB and since Tywin only arrived back after it planning for some RW like event would have started at the same time.

But seriously, the BF isn't going to sign his niece and nephews death warrants over Robb. That would be pointless.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

So much victim blaming in this thread. The Red Wedding has a lot of people to blame for it, not the least of which is Robb. Let's not act like none of it is Theon's fault. Part of the reason Robb slept with Jeyne was dealing with his grief over the loss of Winterfell and the death of his brothers. (So far as he knew)