Battle of the ford: Robbs reaction.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Edmure wasn't wrong to do as he did given the information he had on hand. Robb simply guilted him into marrying a Frey by pretending he had some elaborate plan that only made sense in hindsight.

Truth is, Robb cannot have planned to play cat and mouse with Tywin in the Westerlands before he gave Edmure his orders because Robb and Grey Wind had not yet discovered the secret passage around the Golden Tooth yet. And without that secret passage, there was no plan.

Even with the secret passage and Robb being lucky that there were no scouts it was still 6,000 against 10,000. His victory was in no way certain.

My point was no one is on equal terms with their king that's why you have to kneel before them.

Kneel yes, but Robb is not a religious King with divine authority(much like the many in medieval times) so his judgement is not final and people are not expected to sacrifice themselves on his say so. Robb put his own lands above some vague instruction.

[danm_999]

Even with the secret passage and Robb being lucky that there were no scouts it was still 6,000 against 10,000. His victory was in no way certain.

It's also not certain Tywin WAS returning to the Westerlands to chase Robb around when Edmure stopped him. He might have been moving into place to besiege Riverrun. Remember, at this point, who is still locked in the dungeons of Riverrun that Tywin considers fairly valuable? More valuable than smacking Robb around who is annoying, but can't actually take the Rock, or hurt Tywin or his family.

After all, he considers Stannis, not Robb, the true threat, so the idea he'd leave Kings Landing vulnerable whilst charging into the Westlerlands after Robb is dubious, even if he didn't think he'd be trapped there.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

It's also not certain Tywin WAS returning to the Westerlands to chase Robb around when Edmure stopped him.

He was just tryna stroll through the Riverlands with several thousand men for fun

Edited cause that was way more snarky than intended

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Edmure's plan was not bad at all? his plan allowed the Lannisters to link up with the Tyrells and destroy Stannis at Kings Landing which pretty much ended Edmure's and Robb's chance at winning the war. When the Blackfish explained to him what had happened he knew that he screwed up and that's why he accepted the Frey wedding .

Robb didnt know about the tyrells either, and as a matter of facts, with or without tywins, garlan forces were quite enought to drive stannis out anyway.

[Buckthorn]

All Tywin was trying to do was look for ways to bypass Edmure's forces and gain access to the Westerlands. If Robb told Edmure to hold Riverrun he meant keep all your forces inside "in case" Tywin attacks the castle. Edmure should have realized the Lannisters were not trying to attack his castle or his people when the Mountain and other outriders fled from his archers.

[Lord Nightstalker]

Why did Stannis merely hold Storms End against the Tyrells, rather than proactively take the field against them when Robert raised his banners?

Why did Lord Blackwood when Jaime marched?

Why did Lord Mallister?

Why do all these other warriors get the point of holding a castle, but Edmure doesn't?

Better yet, why are people making it seem like Robb left the command on paper, scribbled in the Old Tongue when it clearly wasn't?

Robb left resources in play that might've prevented the RW from being pulled off, n Edmure took them n used them in an ultimately pointless fashion.

Edmure couldn't see that a horsed host could run rings around an army containing large amounts of foot?

Edmure couldn't see that the Lannisters having a defendable base in the middle of the riverlands that allows them to raid, loot and basically splinter the martial capabilities of the region is causing his side to lose the war, day by day?

Stannis marched to remove the Boltons from power in Winterfell, because as long as they sit there, they're a disruptive power and make it virtually impossible to consolidate his grip on the north.

Renly considered leaving Stannis to continue his march on the capital, but Tarly advised against it.

Read his reasons.

At this point, im convinced most people that blame Robb either dislike him, or flatout don't comprehend the many ways Martin has crafted his story.

Most things that happen are compared n contrasted, sometimes not directly, but if you read deeply, you'll see there's nothing new under the son in these books.

Agreed. Catelyn's thoughts about the plan make it clear that Edmure was supposed to stay in Riverrun.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Edmure is damned either way to be honest. If Tywin comes back into his own realm with his 20,000 and traps and Kills Robb and his 6,000 men, Cat and others would be blaming him for not doing enough to stop him. Especially when you consider that any plans Robb had made with Edmure had included the recently defected Frey forces.

[Erkan12]

Edmure wasn't wrong to do as he did given the information he had on hand. Robb simply guilted him into marrying a Frey by pretending he had some elaborate plan that only made sense in hindsight.

Truth is, Robb cannot have planned to play cat and mouse with Tywin in the Westerlands before he gave Edmure his orders because Robb and Grey Wind had not yet discovered the secret passage around the Golden Tooth yet. And without that secret passage, there was no plan.

Robb and Blackfish didn't blame him for marriage. Because Catelyn did the propose... How many times we need to tell that ?

Also really funny, thinking that Robb and Blackfish would lie about that...

They send their order after Oxcross.

Edmure is damned either way to be honest. If Tywin comes back into his own realm with his 20,000 and traps and Kills Robb and his 6,000 men, Cat and others would be blaming him for not doing enough to stop him. Especially when you consider that any plans Robb had made with Edmure had included the recently defected Frey forces.

Edmure persuade Robb for sending his forces to their location (thats why Robb made another battle strategy, with extra 10.000 men it would be different strategy), then foolishly he gathered them for attacking to Tywin who is leaving the Riverlands.

No one expecting for a battle from him.

[David Selig]

Why did Stannis merely hold Storms End against the Tyrells, rather than proactively take the field against them when Robert raised his banners?

Probably because he had 500 men and the enemy had 50 000 or so.

You think he'd stayed in and let his men starve almost to death if he had any realistic chance of breaking the siege?

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Probably because he had 500 men and the enemy had 50 000 or so.

You think he'd stayed in and let his men starve almost to death if he had any realistic chance of breaking the siege?

I think the key factor there was "when Robert raised his banners?". As in, before there was a 50,000 strong army laying siege to Storms End, Stannis received orders to "Hold Storms End", and so he held Storms End, he didn't meet any enemy forces in the field at a choke point like Edmure did.

[David Selig]

Well, you can't do much with 500 men in a full scale war. The only realistic option for Stannis was to stay at the extremely strong castle. So not really comparable to Edmure's case. Plus, for all we know, he may have been ordered to stay in the castle and never leave.

[Barty]

Edmure wasn't wrong to do as he did given the information he had on hand. Robb simply guilted him into marrying a Frey by pretending he had some elaborate plan that only made sense in hindsight.

Truth is, Robb cannot have planned to play cat and mouse with Tywin in the Westerlands before he gave Edmure his orders because Robb and Grey Wind had not yet discovered the secret passage around the Golden Tooth yet. And without that secret passage, there was no plan.

Why are you doubting the existence of the plan?? Robb initially went west to defeat the army at Oxcross - after he does this and gets news that Renly is dead and Stannis is marching towards KL, he comes up with a plan to start a campaign of burning and pillaging the west(which would force Tywin to come west). Why did Robb stay in the west for months after Oxcross, even though he knew he did not have the strength to take the Rock? The fact that Robb stayed in the west for so long(despite getting word that the North is under attack) can only be explained by the existence of this plan.

The fact is that Robb had a brilliant plan and a simple miscommunication ruined it. He puts the blame on Edmure to get him ready to marry a Frey, true, but the plan's existence cannot be questioned.

[Barty]

Edmure is damned either way to be honest. If Tywin comes back into his own realm with his 20,000 and traps and Kills Robb and his 6,000 men, Cat and others would be blaming him for not doing enough to stop him. Especially when you consider that any plans Robb had made with Edmure had included the recently defected Frey forces.

Robb was not planning on engaging Lannister forces. He had spent months studying the lands,he also had Westerland scouts in his army and he was all horsed - trapping Robb under such circumstances would be near impossible. And in war you have to take risks, Robb is considered such a great general because he took big risks and they paid off.

[Blackfish Tully]

It's also not certain Tywin WAS returning to the Westerlands to chase Robb around when Edmure stopped him. He might have been moving into place to besiege Riverrun. Remember, at this point, who is still locked in the dungeons of Riverrun that Tywin considers fairly valuable? More valuable than smacking Robb around who is annoying, but can't actually take the Rock, or hurt Tywin or his family.

After all, he considers Stannis, not Robb, the true threat, so the idea he'd leave Kings Landing vulnerable whilst charging into the Westlerlands after Robb is dubious, even if he didn't think he'd be trapped there.

Besieging Riverrun at that time would have been the ruin of Tywin Lannister. To besiege Riverrun you have to divide your forces into three seperate groups and those forces will be seperated by the river so they would have a difficult time helping each other if any of the groups are attacked. Don't forget that Edmure sent the Riverlords back to their lands and Robb is in the west with 6000 northmen . If Tywin besieged Riverrun Robb would head back to the Riverlands , link up with the Riverlords and crush the Lannisters three seperate armies one at a time. The Lannisters have already lost one army trying to besiege Riverrun so there is no way Tywin is stupid enough to lose another army there. The thought that Tywin would lay siege to Riverrun never even came up in the conversation that Cat and Edmure had about Tywin crossing to the Westerlands because they knew how bad an idea that would have been.

[The Frosted King]

Well, you can't do much with 500 men in a full scale war. The only realistic option for Stannis was to stay at the extremely strong castle. So not really comparable to Edmure's case. Plus, for all we know, he may have been ordered to stay in the castle and never leave.

But we hear from Stannis that he was ordered to hold Storms End, so he did.

Ursghmog covered my other point.

And we don't know if the Tyrell host was 30, 50 or 70 thousand strong.

Had Stannis called for the garrisons of loyal Storm lords, maybe he could've done damage. But instead he merely held his castle.

As he tells us he was ordered to.

Edmure doesn't gainsay Robb when he reminds him that his orders were to hold Riverrun.

Edmure screwed up.

He lost sight(or could never see) what was really important in their campaign, and rewarded his side a pointless victory.

Robb messed up with Jeyne, yeah, but imo this wasn't on him.

Feel bad for Edmure trying to do the right thing, but it was a bad call for the big picture, and his scolding was earned.

[Chaircat Meow]

Why are you doubting the existence of the plan?? Robb initially went west to defeat the army at Oxcross - after he does this and gets news that Renly is dead and Stannis is marching towards KL, he comes up with a plan to start a campaign of burning and pillaging the west(which would force Tywin to come west). Why did Robb stay in the west for months after Oxcross, even though he knew he did not have the strength to take the Rock? The fact that Robb stayed in the west for so long(despite getting word that the North is under attack) can only be explained by the existence of this plan.

The fact is that Robb had a brilliant plan and a simple miscommunication ruined it. He puts the blame on Edmure to get him ready to marry a Frey, true, but the plan's existence cannot be questioned.

Nope. The first anyone will have heard of that is when Edmure reports the result of BwB. Clearly Stannis was on his way to KL when Cat got back to Rivverun but no one knew that. Robb didn't either.

[TheSmilingKnight11]

Edmure should of been told. Big mistake by Robb

[Blackfish Tully]

Nope. The first anyone will have heard of that is when Edmure reports the result of BwB. Clearly Stannis was on his way to KL when Cat got back to Rivverun but no one knew that. Robb didn't either.

They might not have known when Stannis was going to Kings Landing but everybody in the world knew that he would have to attack Kings Landing at some point . To be the King on the Iron Throne you have to actually take Kings Landing. Tywin knew that and so did Robb so Edmure should have known as well.

[Blackfish Tully]

Edmure should of been told. Big mistake by Robb

Robb was in the middle of the Westerlands at that time so getting a message to Edmure would have been difficult and dangerous. When Robb left the Riverlands Edmure had sent the Riverlords back to their castles so in Robb's mind the thought that Edmure would call the banners and pull the soldiers out of the Twins to attack Tywin just wasn't a possibility.

[Erkan12]

After Edmure rescued from Kingslayer he said to Robb ''please send my river lords their positions they have to protect their lands''.

Then he gathered that force and try to attack Lannisters himself, without telling Robb. He just want to be hero, (like Theon's capture of Winterfell) they are both fools and they destroyed Robb with themselves.

No wonder Blackfish really pissed off to Edmure.