Heresy 78

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 78, this week’s edition of the thread which takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire, the real conflict underlying the Game of Thrones.

We call it Heresy because its about challenging the orthodoxies that the Song of Ice and Fire is simply about Jon Snow turning out to be Azor Ahai and defeating the Others, and that the children of the forest are the good guys who will help him do it. Instead as the story has progressed we have come to see a much darker world and that the Starks’ place in it may not be as straightforward as once it seemed. Thus we try to look below the surface at this second, far more complex conflict which may have little or nothing to do with the struggle for the Iron Throne – but does seem to be fairly deeply rooted in Celtic and Norse mythology, upon the Mabinigion, the Tain bo Culaidh and Sir Gawain and the Green Night to name but three – and not forgetting Young Tam Lin.

Some of us therefore suspect that the children are not the cuddly tree-huggers they pretend to be. The reality is that the Pact agreed long ago on the Isle of Faces was not an alliance but a singularly one-sided peace treaty which saw the children surrender their lands and yet in the end still saw them driven beyond the Wall to face extinction.

This is why some of us suspect that the weirwood faces of the white walkers in the HBO show may point to a connection with the children already admitted but not yet explained by GRRM, and why as Qhorin Halfhand warned, the Old Powers are awakening, the trees have eyes again - and Gendel’s children are always hungry.

The role of the Starks is therefore equally ambiguous. They were once kings not of the North but of Winter, and may be again in the person of Jon Snow.

This is the Song of Ice and Fire; and the Others and the rest of the Old Powers together represent only one side of a conflict that has been waged since time began.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun.

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if you’re new to the game please don’t be intimidated by all those earlier threads.* We’re very good at talking in circles. We’re also friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, (after all to preach – or refute – heresy you need to be able to quote scripture) with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

* for which see Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98456-the-heretics-guide-to-heresy/

[King of Winters]

GRRM is very much into layered meanings and I think that in both cases the two symbols are saying much the same thing. In the first we have the balance between two equal but opposite forces; in this case Ice and Fire or if you prefer Winter and Summer. The other, I agree is on one level a symbol of winter - the swirling storm pattern but at one and the same time as Wolfmaid points out it also represents a cycle; winter now but summer to come again.

The second symbol does look a bit like a storm you might see on a weather forecast, so the white walkers are forecasting a heavy winter storm approaching.

As to the first symbol we see in the first episode of season 1 (the one made up of the dead Wildlings), it looks to me like the Venus symbol, or a symbol meaning a change in the weather, though I've forgotten what it's called.

[Urrax]

The second symbol does look a bit like a storm you might see on a weather forecast, so the white walkers are forecasting a heavy winter storm approaching.

As to the first symbol we see in the first episode of season 1 (the one made up of the dead Wildlings), it looks to me like the Venus symbol, or a symbol meaning a change in the weather, though I've forgotten what it's called.

Maybe the first meant Winter Is Coming, the second means Winter Is Here.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Maybe the first meant Winter Is Coming, the second means Winter Is Here.

I've often thought that the Stark words would seem kind of redundant during winter...

[Black Crow]

The first symbol is the Greek letter Phi, symbolising the golden ratio and is, as I mentioned earlier a symbol of balance. Hence my suggestion that in this instance it is used as a mataphor for Ice and Fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

The second symbol we seem pretty well agreed is winter, or Ice

[Yield.]

To me both symbols are linked actually.

The first episode arrangement looks like the Greek letter Phi and the third season episode arrangement looks like a nautilus.

The golden ratio, which uses the numerical value of phi, is used to calculate the curve of a spiral.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Check out the scientific name of this plant:

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/tro-29209158

[Black Crow]

I've often thought that the Stark words would seem kind of redundant during winter...

Some of us here in Heresy have tended to interpret their words as a battle cry...

But as always, GRRM does like his layered meanings. On the one hand it is what it says; if we have Ice and Fire then no matter how warm the weather the time for winter will come again.

And then, as the Stark lords saddle up, direwolves by their sides and a sword named Ice is in their hands, Winter is indeed coming.

[Black Crow]

To me both symbols are linked actually.

The first episode arrangement looks like the Greek letter Phi and the third season episode arrangement looks like a nautilus.

The golden ratio, which uses the numerical value of phi, is used to calculate the curve of a spiral.

Oh I do like that.

[King of Winters]

To me both symbols are linked actually.The first episode arrangement looks like the Greek letter Phi and the third season episode arrangement looks like a nautilus.The golden ratio, which uses the numerical value of phi, is used to calculate the curve of a spiral.

Oh I do like that.

:agree:

[alienarea]

Ok, building a bridge to the latest Asterix the White Walkers seem to be picts.

[BloodMagic]

Hi just wanted to know what the heretical view n bran Vras's winterfell hois clois is?

Thought it was a great well thought on theory IMO

[LynnS]

Check out the scientific name of this plant:

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/tro-29209158

Wightia Gigantea Wall? You've got to be kidding me. LOL! Well I believe that the writer says that he creates organically.

ETA: In the same family Specimossima; the Brandisia.

http://www.theplantlist.org/browse/A/Paulowniaceae/Brandisia/

[Black Crow]

Hi just wanted to know what the heretical view n bran Vras's winterfell hois clois is?

Thought it was a great well thought on theory IMO

Very well thought out indeed and Bran Vras was for some time a very prominent and still well respected member of the heretic community.

Where I and some others take leave to differ is in thinking that he does get a little carried away. In preaching heresy I have always tried at the same time to keep it firmly rooted in the text and source material, and to look for the straightforward rather than the convoluted. Much as I enjoy Bran Vras' knowledge and insights I think that in general he goes too far.

Nevertheless, that is a personal assessment and whether you agree or disagree I'd say his work is essential reading.

[Black Crow]

Ok, building a bridge to the latest Asterix the White Walkers seem to be picts.

Not seen that one - do tell.

[alienarea]

Not seen that one - do tell.

The latest Asterix is Asterix and the Picts.

And of course the Picts use pictograms.

And those signs look like pictograms, don't they?

A little more serious, who is most likely able to see these? Crows, ravens and skinchangers using birds. Are the White Walkers communicating with them or declaring war on them as well?

[LynnS]

Ok, building a bridge to the latest Asterix the White Walkers seem to be picts.

I could go with that based on pictish runes. The three images from the HBO series could be interpreted as pictish symbols. The cauldron and the v-rod and the spiral.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=pictish+symbols+their+meaning&sa=X&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=TDFtUo-4K8al2wWQsICACg&ved=0CDwQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=625

http://lastofthedruids.com/2013/04/03/pictish-symbols-z-rods-and-v-rods-of-celestial-astronomical-importance/

[Black Crow]

I could go with that based on pictish runes. The three images from the HBO series could be interpreted as pictish symbols. The cauldron and the v-rod and the spiral.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=pictish+symbols+their+meaning&sa=X&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=TDFtUo-4K8al2wWQsICACg&ved=0CDwQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=625

http://lastofthedruids.com/2013/04/03/pictish-symbols-z-rods-and-v-rods-of-celestial-astronomical-importance/

Its an interesting one. I don't see the symbols as depicted being actual Pictish ones, but I do wonder about how literally we should take GRRM's use of the term runes. Does he mean to imply that the First Men were recording stuff in actual Germanic runic writing - or Celtic Ogham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham - or are the symbols created in the show what GRRM actually has in mind when he speaks of "runes"?

If so, it obviously does beg the question as to who Craster's boys are communicating with. Are they leaving messages for the First Men, or simply leaving their trademarks, or, as Alien Area suggests, are they marking them out for the crows? It may be far from co-incidental that it requires a birds eye camera shot to see them properly.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Wightia Gigantea Wall? You've got to be kidding me. LOL! Well I believe that the writer says that he creates organically.

ETA: In the same family Specimossima; the Brandisia.

http://www.theplantlist.org/browse/A/Paulowniaceae/Brandisia/

No joke! And on the other hand - the FIRE side of things -- check these links out:

-----

DRAGON'S BLOOD:

"A bright red resin, dragon's blood, is produced from D. draco and, in ancient times, from D. cinnabari. Modern dragon's blood is however more likely to be from the unrelated Daemonorops rattan palms."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemonorops

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracaena_%28plant%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_blood

Dragon's Blood is also connected to Cinnabar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar#Other_forms_of_cinnabar

(Apparently there is cinnabar, and an alternative form described as "black cinnabar?" Links Dragon's Blood, sulfur, and Mercury. Mercury... whose mythology we know the Roman's to have tied (cross-culturally) to Odin, right? Connection, connections...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracaena_cinnabari

("The resin of D. cinnabari is thought to have been the original source of dragons blood until during the mediaeval and renaissance periods when other plants were used instead...")

-----

Back to botany, we find:

The VALERIAN family (plant taxonomy):

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerianaceae

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeriana_officinalis

With additional associations such as...

...the "Red Valerian." (Note references to the occasional white variety, and its ability to grow in walls):

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centranthus_ruber

...and "Corn Salad," a plant species of the Valerian taxonomic fault:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerianella_locusta

----

And there's more where all this comes from...

Hasn't GRRM commented that, as an author, he views him as more of a "gardener" than an "architect?" When I first read that, I didn't know I was supposed to take it so literally...!

[LynnS]