NedFlanderStark Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Something has been bothering me lately and that's the public's perception of Joffrey. At the start of this song he is a 12-year old boy, groomed to eventually take over the Seven Kingdoms when he's good & ready, and thrust into a position that he wasn't prepared for. Despite all this he thrived. Let's take an objective look at his decisions once taking over as King. The first order of business is beheading the lovable Ned Stark. You can't fault him for this decision! Joffrey has no idea that he is the product of incest and legitimately thinks he's the rightful heir & ruler. Ned Stark and his (probable warg) Northmen burst into the throne room and declare that he "has no right" to rule. Not only this, but Ned's wife had previously kidnapped a member of the royal family, the Queen's brother! Correct me if I'm wrong but Joffrey had no idea the Whispering Wood battle had taken place so he couldn't have possibly known that he'd want to trade Ned for his "uncle" back - and in the end it didn't even matter as Jaime made it back and was wiser for his whole ordeal having happened. Point for Joff. The next gripe people have about Joffrey is that he's a "coward" or "hid behind his mother's skirt." This is flat-out untrue and borderline sexist. Joffrey was the one who fought back the crowd at the gates of the Red Keep demanding food. Joffrey was also on the wall fighting off his nitwit Uncle Stannis until he was forced back to his chambers (if I recall correctly it took at least 10 gold cloaks and two or three of his Kingsguard to subdue him and bring him back). If Joffrey had an army like the Young Dragon did you can bet he would have met Renly or Robb in the open field and been proclaimed the Young Lion in all the songs through the ages. The truth of the matter is that he was stuck inside a city with no food, a worthless band of gold cloaks and Kingsguard, and still helped defend and save the city. Bran & Rickon were not able to stop Winterfell from burning down under similar circumstances, were they? Point for Joffrey. Some people knock Joffrey because of the way he treated Sansa. I agree that it was less than ideal but Joffrey was but a young boy who knew little in the ways of betrothal. If Joffrey had a lion at his side like Robb Stark had a direwolf or Dany has(had?) three dragons, he would easily be a fan favorite. Sorry he wasn't gifted this plot armor. Third point for Joffrey, game set & match! Please, let's all reconsider the way we think of the Young Lion. He was a 12-year old boy who grew into his role almost perfectly and was only murdered when two, maybe three of the most powerful family's in Westeros decided to break guest right and kill him at his own wedding. This is a serious discussion only - please no flames or trolls. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Stark of Winterfell Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 you're joking right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 The first order of business is beheading the lovable Ned Stark. You can't fault him for this decision! Sure I can. Joffrey offered Ned Stark a reduced sentence in exchange for Stark's guilty plea. Upon accepting Stark's plea bargain, Joffrey decided to go right ahead an execute him. Not only was this a clear example of prosecutorial misconduct, it was also conducted at the site of the Great Sept of Baelor, something that even the Lannisters agree was improper at best and most of the Commons would consider blasphemous. Joffrey may have had the right to execute Ned, but he should have been made his decision and stood by it openly instead of playing a childish game about it. The truth of the matter is that he was stuck inside a city with no food, a worthless band of gold cloaks and Kingsguard, and still helped defend and save the city. I'll give you this one. Joffrey had a lot on his plate here and most of it wasn't his fault. The Tyrells closed the rose road and deprived his city of food; Stannis confiscated his royal navy and took it to Dragonstone; Tywin refused to bring the Lannister army to King's Landing despite a royal command. Some people knock Joffrey because of the way he treated Sansa. I agree that it was less than ideal but Joffrey was but a young boy who knew little in the ways of betrothal. It's still disgraceful conduct. Most people know not to order their guards to strip young girls naked and beat them in front of court. Even if Joffrey didn't know, he was told this more than once and he chose not to stop. If Joffrey had a lion at his side like Robb Stark had a direwolf or Dany has(had?) three dragons, he would easily be a fan favorite. Sorry he wasn't gifted this plot armor. Third point for Joffrey, game set & match! This doesn't make any sense to me. Joffrey not having a pet lion isn't a personal achievement on his part; it's not something that he ever thought about, chose, or took pride in. Besides, Arya and Sansa are both reasonably popular and neither had direwolves since book 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 The Joff does not take lightly to traitors. Notice how good he was to Marg and how nice he was to Sansa at first? He even forgave her after the wolf incident. The Joff wasn't all that bad of a kid. His treatment of Tyrion only happened because he heard what Tyrion wanted to do to Tommen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven in Winter Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I have always wondered why he turned out so bad but Tommen and Myrcella turned out seemingly ok. Was he spoiled, or maybe didn't have any positive role models? Was he just a psychopath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjen of the Kingsguard Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I don't even... Actually Joffrey was a pretty swell guy.Sansa might have had breast cancer, but who would have known if he hadn't checked?Also, no doubt he saw that Ned's leg was infected, and that the it would have slowly killed him.That's why he had Ned beheaded, so he wouldn't suffer!. Good guy Joffrey. The Young Lion indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I have always wondered why he turned out so bad but Tommen and Myrcella turned out seemingly ok. Was he spoiled, or maybe didn't have any positive role models? Was he just a psychopath? "Fear is better than love." Joffrey knew he had to be feared to protect his siblings. He knew that a kingships's duties were harsh and cruel. He had to be brave to make sure his children were safe and that's why he constantly went against his mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodTreeHugger Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Half assed troll attempt. You forgot to justify the time that Joffrey disemboweled the pregnant cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirolo Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Yeah. I think Joffrey was well on his way to becoming the next Rhaegar when he got slapped by Tyrion, which knocked a few screws loose and made him into the monster he later became. Curse you, Tyrion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven in Winter Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 This doesn't make any sense to me. Joffrey not having a pet lion isn't a personal achievement on his part; it's not something that he ever thought about, chose, or took pride in. Besides, Arya and Sansa are both reasonably popular and neither had direwolves since book 1. Not to mention... Robb had Grey Wind the whole time and ended up horribly dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovinRC Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 In all seriousness, when Joffrey was named King, in his mind he was. He had no idea that he was a product of incest, his Mother had been grooming him for this day since his birth. I do think that his upbringing warped his concept of right and wrong, good and evil, ... There is something so off about this character that I cannot sympathize with him. He has been doing awful things throughout his childhood and the only time he was punished by Robert for killing the cat, Cersei stepped in and put a stop to Robert disciplining him. His behavior on the way from Winterfell to KL should have been nipped in the bud, but his idiot mother could not see the monster he was becoming. Killing Ned and abusing Sansa should have been stopped. The Lannister's believe themselves to be above all others and raised Joffrey in that image. He was young and and the ones raising him and his council should have reigned him in from the beginning That said, his death was awful. I disliked his character so much that I was glad that he died until I realized how young he was and how those who should have raised him to be a King sat back and watched as he order the deaths of Ned, abused Sansa and tormented Tyrion every chance he got. I did appreciate the chapter when he wanted to serve Sansa Robb's head at his wedding feast. I think his Mother and Grandfather finally saw the monster they helped create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NedFlanderStark Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 This doesn't make any sense to me. Joffrey not having a pet lion isn't a personal achievement on his part; it's not something that he ever thought about, chose, or took pride in. Besides, Arya and Sansa are both reasonably popular and neither had direwolves since book 1. I'm simply stating that if he was given the plot armor of being a warg or being a dragon rider he'd be a fan favorite, or called the Lion King or the Young Lion. The Joff does not take lightly to traitors. Notice how good he was to Marg and how nice he was to Sansa at first? He even forgave her after the wolf incident. The Joff wasn't all that bad of a kid. His treatment of Tyrion only happened because he heard what Tyrion wanted to do to Tommen... Thank you - great point I forgot to mention. Joff learned the errors of the stripping-Sansa-at-court mischief and behaved like a complete gentleman to Marg and her family. Can anybody find one piece of textual evidence stating otherwise? Half assed troll attempt. You forgot to justify the time that Joffrey disemboweled the pregnant cat. Please no flames. The cat thing can be chalked up to boys being boys. Theon kicked a decapitated man's head but I don't hear anybody complaining about his character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Is this a parody thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodTreeHugger Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 NedFlanderStark, on 13 Nov 2013 - 8:04 PM, said: Please no flames. The cat thing can be chalked up to boys being boys. Theon kicked a decapitated man's head but I don't hear anybody complaining about his character. Most boys don't murder animals. Plenty of people don't find Theon to be a sympathetic character and many who do find him sympathetic just started feeling pity for him after he was tortured by Ramsay. If you want to like Joffrey go right ahead but you can't expect to hypothesis that he is a tragic hero and expect to be taken seriously. He was clearly written to be unlikable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodTreeHugger Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Is this a parody thread? The line between troll and seriously misguided is a fine one isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I'm simply stating that if he was given the plot armor of being a warg or being a dragon rider he'd be a fan favorite, or called the Lion King or the Young Lion. And I'm simply stating that your argument doesn't really follow. If being a warg was "plot armor", Robb would have survived. And plot armor really only means that the character survives for the sake of the plot; it says nothing about popularity with the fans. Varamyr Sixskins had like five animal companions, including wolves and shadowcats, but he's hardly a fan favorite and it certainly didn't render him immortal. That said, his death was awful. I disliked his character so much that I was glad that he died until I realized how young he was and how those who should have raised him to be a King sat back and watched as he order the deaths of Ned, abused Sansa and tormented Tyrion every chance he got. This is exactly my feeling. I couldn't really enjoy Joffrey's death because it was such a horror show, but I can't pretend that he was anything other than a monster. His alleged caregivers made him this way; they emphasized that Lannisters should have the right to do whatever they want and kingly Lannisters even more so, but they never taught him discipline or responsibility and this led directly to who he turned out to be and even to why he was murdered at his own wedding. His line in the last episode of GOT captures his essence perfectly -- in the scene where Joffrey proposes feeding Robb Stark's head to Sansa, Tyrion tells him, "She is no longer yours to torment," and Joffrey retorts, "Everyone is mine to torment." When Joffrey looks at people, he doesn't see them as humans or even as his servants or subjects; he sees them as things to be tortured and destroyed, and he can barely restrain himself from doing so. It goes beyond Tywin's, "fear vs. love" ethic -- Joffrey has this sick, dark need to hurt others and if he ever had a chance to kill that part of himself it was destroyed by the fact that his family was so rich and powerful that they were basically impervious to consequences for most of his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Wolf Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Joffrey was surrounded by KG and gold cloaks wearing plate and mail at the Red Keep's gates fighting off unarmed and starving smallfolk. He cut himself once on the IT and started crying for mommy. Tyrion saved Joffrey's sorry ass by ACTUALLY fighting in the battle and buying the city enough time for Tywin to arrive and smash Stannis. Rickon fought off a group of grown men with a rusty iron sword, and was four when he did that, but the ironborn had already taken WF and Rickon didnt have a sword close at hand. Bran is a cripple. They were hiding in the crypts when WF was sacked, and two boys, a gentle giant, and one wildling srent enough to fight off six hundred people. At the age of twelve, Joffrey should have known that killing Ned was a DUMBASS idea. Joffrey was the king, so the gold cloaks couldnt be rough with him or theyd have lost their heads. JOFFREY KNEW LITTLE IN THE WAYS OF BETROTHAL? He had Sansa sexually humiliated in front of a hundred people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalalOfDorne Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 How about neither? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Noone Sword Of The Day Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 First he is not a hero... at all.... This has been brought up so many times before, and that is he is the product of his environment. It was the poor upbringing of both Cercei and Robert that probably lead to his ultimate demise. He is only misunderstood in the fact that i think some people are forgetting that he believed he was roberts son, he had heard the ideas that he might have been a product of incest, but lets be honest, if you heard that about yourself you wouldn't want to believe it either, especially if you were in a position of great power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Tragic hero or misunderstood? More like sick, depraved dumbass. I am not ashamed to admit that as I was reading his death scene, I smiled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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