R + L = J the real Martin twist

[The_BlauerDragon]

I don't completely get R + L = J, as it implies that Jon is not Ned's son. Which would mean Ned took Jon to pretend he wasn't Targaryen I guess. Not sure.

All the more reason why I strongly support the statement that R+L=

Though I think I stand alone in that regard. I think that Jon was just what Ned said he was... Ned's son from another woman prior to his last minute marriage to Cat.

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

I am not sure about who Jon mother is however I think that there are only two realist canadates Lyanna or Asha. I favour R+L=J because it fit the themes of the books and because Ned never in mind think of Jon as his son final I rule out Wilya because if there is not reason to hide her as Jon mother whereas if Asha killed herself over Ned and Jon lieing about protect the honour of Starfall

[The_BlauerDragon]

I am not sure about who Jon mother is however I think that there are only two realist canadates Lyanna or Asha. I favour R+L=J because it fit the themes of the books and because Ned never in mind think of Jon as his son final I rule out Wilya because if there is not reason to hide her as Jon mother whereas if Asha killed herself over Ned and Jon lieing about protect the honour of Starfall

That would also support the Jon=PwwP theory... "He stands before you."

It would put Jon into contention for "Sword of the Morning"... It may be a light stretch, but...

And by all accounts and descriptions Dawn fits the same profile as Lightbringer...

[The Wolf Maid]

All the more reason why I strongly support the statement that R+L=

Though I think I stand alone in that regard. I think that Jon was just what Ned said he was... Ned's son from another woman prior to his last minute marriage to Cat.

No, not really. Aratan is one who does not support the theory, and there are others as well.

That would also support the Jon=PwwP theory... "He stands before you."

It would put Jon into contention for "Sword of the Morning"... It may be a light stretch, but...

And by all accounts and descriptions Dawn fits the same profile as Lightbringer...

IIRC, I think Martin said something about Dawn still being in Starfall after Arthur Dayne died.

[The_BlauerDragon]

No, not really. Aratan is one who does not support the theory, and there are others as well.

IIRC, I think Martin said something about Dawn still being in Starfall after Arthur Dayne died.

And it will remain at Starfall until someone of the Dayne bloodline proves themselves to be worthy of wielding it... They've been known to wait for generations...

[Xray the Enforcer]

I am not sure about who Jon mother is however I think that there are only two realist canadates Lyanna or Asha. I favour R+L=J because it fit the themes of the books and because Ned never in mind think of Jon as his son final I rule out Wilya because if there is not reason to hide her as Jon mother whereas if Asha killed herself over Ned and Jon lieing about protect the honour of Starfall

Psst -- Ashara. Not Asha. Unless we think Jon is heir to the Ironborn throne, too.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Psst -- Ashara. Not Asha. Unless we think Jon is heir to the Ironborn throne, too.

Well, I could imagine the Ironborn getting started young, but... That may be a little bit TOO Young... And I didn't think Ned had anything in common with LF... Or were you just having a little fun and playing at being an ECMGEIaCS?

[Sarella]

That would also support the Jon=PwwP theory... "He stands before you."

It would put Jon into contention for "Sword of the Morning"... It may be a light stretch, but...

And by all accounts and descriptions Dawn fits the same profile as Lightbringer...

Bah! Dawn fits none of Lightbringer's description except that it is a sword.

Lightbringer:

1. Took three attempts to forge
   
2. Took the sacrifice of Azor Ahai's wife to temper it
   
3. Emits heat
   
4. Prophecised to be drawn from the fire by Azor Ahai reborn
   

Dany's Dragons:

1. Took three attempts to hatch
   
2. Took the sacrifice of her husband to hatch them
   
3. Emit heat
   
4. Were drawn from the fire by Dany, who is Azor Ahai reborn
   

Edit: added dot points

[The Wolf Maid]

Bah! Dawn fits none of Lightbringer's description except that it is a sword.

Lightbringer:

1. Took three attempts to forge
   
2. Took the sacrifice of Azor Ahai's wife to temper it
   
3. Emits heat
   
4. Prophecised to be drawn from the fire by Azor Ahai reborn
   

Dany's Dragons:

1. Took three attempts to hatch
   
2. Took the sacrifice of her husband to hatch them
   
3. Emit heat
   
4. Were drawn from the fire by Dany, who is Azor Ahai reborn
   

Edit: added dot points

Very interesting theory. I've never considered Lightbringer=Dragons before, but looking at your points, they certainly fit.

If this is ever true, I'd love to see the look in Mel's face when she realizes how wrong she was.

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

OF course we know next too nothing about the early history of Dawn however we do have the word of Ned and Jamie that it glows as if on fire remeber what is said about take think purly Iteraly

[Sarella]

Maester Aemon, our expert on the prophesy, thinks that Lightbringer must emit heat. Stannis' sword glows prettily too, but Aemon is not convinced it is Lightbringer. There is no evidence that Dawn emits heat. It is, however, mentioned several times that the dragons emit heat.

And Lightbringer is the sword of Azor Ahai. Since Dany is Azor Ahai, Lightbringer must belong to her. The dragons are hers. Dawn is unlikely to ever be hers.

[The Wolf Maid]

I think I would be most disappointed if Dawn becomes Dany's as well, That would be overkill. She has the dragons already, and what would Dany do with a sword? Is she training to be a warrior?

[SFDanny]

What ever became of that letter, btw? I don't recollect Jon ever receiving it... Is that where Varys has got to, I wonder?

There is no proof that Ned wrote the letter, but I'm inclined to think he did. Ned has no way of knowing if the offer to save Sansa and allow him to take the black is real, but he has reason enough to trust Varys with a cryptic letter to Jon as a way to give him a last chance to communicate with the boy. There is no way he writes, "by the way, Jon, I've been lying all these years and you are really Rhaegar and Lyanna trueboren son," but he could give Jon some last words of comfort and hints he only would understand that just might make it through. Question becomes would Varys put any effort to decipher it and/or deliver it? No way to know, but if so it might be what starts Jon down the road of searching for the answers to our little mystery.

I must admit, I freely subscribe to your "Aegon the Darkstar/baby-switching" theory. Explains why both Ned and the Darkstar (it seems) have such a hatred for the Lannisters. Ned wouldn't have talked because of his vow to Lyanna, and whoever else knew about it is either dead (Rhaegar, Ashara, Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, possibly Connington) or we haven't heard from them (Howland Reed, possibly Connington).

I want to caution that as much as I love the theory, I think it is highly unlikely. I really think this is a series of red herrings set out for us in order to keep the idea of Aegon still being alive to make us think the claims of others in later books are plausible. I also really think Aegon died in the Sack of King's Landing, but I'd be quite happy to see this crackpot theory borne out.

Btw, how's this for proof that Ned couldn't have 'warged' into Lyanna - a) there's no evidence anywhere in the books (so far at least) that anyone - including Bran, whose abilities are probably the furthest advanced - can warg into a sane, sound-minded human being; pain seems to 'repel' warging - as the incident with Bran and Summer at Queenscrown shows... So yeah, I think that award is definitely deserved! :/

Excellent argument. I may have move Mad Monkey's theory into the disproved category!

[SFDanny]

About dragons. I want to remind again that Plumm climes that dragons like him because he has a drop of dragon blood. Dany is not sure about it at all and so far where is nothing else to confirm that dragons really could sense Targaryen’s blood. Anyway even if they could their ability alone would prove nothing. It could serve only as additional evidence.

if I remember correctly, Martin allows that not all the dragonriders need be Targaryens. That could be his way of blowing smoke in our eyes, but I'm inclined to believe having Targ blood isn't that critical to the Dragons as having some inherent connection to them - something some Targs were known to have.

Crypts. There is almost doubtless something hidden there. Could it be prove of Jon’s parentage? Perhaps. At least we have a possibility here.

I'm certainly not sure what's in the crypts, but I also don't understand anyone's objection to the idea that an object(s) maybe there.

Varys. Don’t forget that he is plotting the restoration of Targaryens. So if he knew that Jon is Targ he should pay some attention on him directly or indirectly. Particularly if he knew or suspected that Jon is a rightful heir to the throne. What is interesting is that while Varys and Illirio are obviously plotting for restoration it also obvious that they never meant Viserys or Dany for the throne. So they must know about some hidden Targ real of fake. And Varys didn’t learn anything from Ned. Ned asked about possibility to right a letter when he thought that he is going to die. Varys replied that Ned would be able to write it but Varys would read it and would sent it only if it will serve or not contradict his own goals. Ned was promised Wall in the same conversation so he had no reason to write the letter at all.

Mezeh, I don't assume Varys is plotting the Targaryen restoration. I'm fully willing to believe he has his own agenda. As I said in the above, I can see Ned writing the letter, as he has no reason to trust Cersei's offer for him to take the black. He has reason to believe Varys might deliver the letter if he thought it would help him. It would have to be something that would not be obvious in its meaning, of course.

Selmy. In the last Dany chapter in ASOS he clearly said to Dany that he do know some secrets of royal family and ready to share since now they are belong to her. So he will yet reveal something.

We will get some information from Ser Barristan, no doubt, but how much he can tell Dany about Rhaegar and Lyanna is another question. He probable knows something about Rhaegar's true feelings, and maybe the location of The Tower of Joy, but anything beyond that I'd be surprised.

Septon, maester, Wylla. There was no mention about some septon or maester. By the way if Rhaegar and Lyanna married it is possible that no septon was present. Lyanna like all Starks followed Old gods and there is a godswood in Harrenhall. Maester – it is possible that there was some maester with Lyanna when she was given birth but if so he would not be able to confirm a marriage part. Wylla is just a wet nurse in the service of house Dayne. IMHO her witness would nto be enough to confirm anything. More interestins could person that considered dead. Jon Connington was present in Harelhall’s tourney and he was Rhaegar’s close friend. So he may know about the marriage part. And lady Ashara Dayne that supposedly committed suicide for unknown reason. She was close to royal family too. Yet the last two are more likely connected to Aegon if he is alive then to Rhaegar/Lyanna offspring.

I agree a septon isn't necessary if they married, but I think it's likely. Some witness is necessary and Connington is a good bet. Wylla and/or a maester serve a different purpose. While they may have had access to the information about a marriage, what they are really necessary for is the birth of a child. The idea that the child of the Crown Prince and a high-born Lady would not have a maester and a wet nurse in attendance seems extremely unlikely. This is especially true if we are to believe Lyanna has been at the Tower of Joy since the early days of Rhaegar and her time together. If they could plan for the birth, then such people would be on hand.

[Mezeh]

According to Citadel Martin exact words were that the third head is not necessary to be a Targaryen. Unless GRRM played with words this implies that the other two should be both Targaryens.

About Varys and Illirio. We know nothing about their true motivation yet they doubtless work together and it seems that their goal is indeed Targaryen restoration. Particularly if you will read spoiler chapters from ADWD. This however raises a question who they intend to sit on Iron Throne. Myself I see this as possible hint that Aegon is still alive.

Barristan stated that he never was close to Rhaegar however he obviously kept his eyes and ears open and noticed quite a lot. So even if he doesn’t know something for sure he may guess more then he knows.

About septon. If the marriage took place it was polygamy marriage. I doubt that any septon would approve it and Lyanna followed Old gods anyway. So saying oath in the godswood seems more likely to me. This also allows keeping the secret better since this implies only involvement of some trusted friends as a witness. Connington is definitely the best bet here. He was already mentioned in the tale of Harenhall tourney and he almost for sure would know some of Rhaegar’s secrets. After all other friends of Rhaegar are all surely dead.

And I tend to agree about the maester part.

[Westrosi]

In that case then, Jon is the spawn of Lyanna and Rhaegar, Ashara's off somewhere with baby Aegon, and the baby Gregor killed was Wylla's(she was Jon's wet nurse which makes me think she'd had a child around the same time). We could add in a fourth baby to the mix, Ned and Ashara's, perhaps being raised as Wylla's.

I don't think Ned actually had "relations" with Ashara or anyone else before (or after) Cat. His high honour would have prevented it, even if he was in love (as it would be against his honour considering his obligation to Cat and his knightly feelings towards the other woman") I think it galled him that he had to call Jon his bastard and he wouldn't have done it had it not been for his promise to Lyanna on her deathbed.

[HarryStark]

<...>

Varys. Don’t forget that he is plotting the restoration of Targaryens. So if he knew that Jon is Targ he should pay some attention on him directly or indirectly. Particularly if he knew or suspected that Jon is a rightful heir to the throne. What is interesting is that while Varys and Illirio are obviously plotting for restoration it also obvious that they never meant Viserys or Dany for the throne. So they must know about some hidden Targ real of fake. And Varys didn’t learn anything from Ned. Ned asked about possibility to right a letter when he thought that he is going to die. Varys replied that Ned would be able to write it but Varys would read it and would sent it only if it will serve or not contradict his own goals. Ned was promised Wall in the same conversation so he had no reason to write the letter at all.

Is it obvious they're planning to put someone other than Viserys or Dany on the throne? What gives you that impression? It had never occurred to me before, am I missing something? Though I guess it could explain the whole ''mummer's dragon'' thing...

Selmy. In the last Dany chapter in ASOS he clearly said to Dany that he do know some secrets of royal family and ready to share since now they are belong to her. So he will yet reveal something.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see quite what it is that he reveals...

Septon, maester, Wylla. There was no mention about some septon or maester. By the way if Rhaegar and Lyanna married it is possible that no septon was present. Lyanna like all Starks followed Old gods and there is a godswood in Harrenhall. Maester – it is possible that there was some maester with Lyanna when she was given birth but if so he would not be able to confirm a marriage part. Wylla is just a wet nurse in the service of house Dayne. IMHO her witness would nto be enough to confirm anything. More interestins could person that considered dead. Jon Connington was present in Harelhall’s tourney and he was Rhaegar’s close friend. So he may know about the marriage part. And lady Ashara Dayne that supposedly committed suicide for unknown reason. She was close to royal family too. Yet the last two are more likely connected to Aegon if he is alive then to Rhaegar/Lyanna offspring.

Why would they have married at Harrenhall? Didn't Rhaegar ride off with her some time later??

[SFDanny]

According to Citadel Martin ...

Mezeh, this stuff is too good, so I'm going to respond in the "official" thread.

[Jakob Lightbringer]

Why would they have married at Harrenhall? Didn't Rhaegar ride off with her some time later??

Perhaps, unknown to others, Rhaegar, following his father's orders, discovered and unmasked the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhall after a fierce struggle. The godswood might have been excellent setting for such an event -- had it happened. But for reasons of his own, Rhaegar must have kept the secret of the knight's identity to himself. Certain words, spoken in the heat of the moment before that tree would be binding in the eyes of the gods.

[The_BlauerDragon]

I don't think Ned actually had "relations" with Ashara or anyone else before (or after) Cat. His high honour would have prevented it, even if he was in love (as it would be against his honour considering his obligation to Cat and his knightly feelings towards the other woman") I think it galled him that he had to call Jon his bastard and he wouldn't have done it had it not been for his promise to Lyanna on her deathbed.

Like father, like Son... Think of what happened to Robb's honor in the heat of passion...