Goodkind XIX: Making spaghetti bounce since 1994!

[Jerec]

So I picked up Wizard's First Rule and turned to Chapter 49 to give it a read today. It's the climax of Book 1, where Richard tricks Rahl. Anyway, I remember the book being such a fast read, and I really enjoyed it the first time through. I read it quite a bit slower today, and it must be my much more refined eye for prose, 'cause it was pretty bad. Not terrible, but not good either. It must be the whole "Gotta know what happens" thing that made me not notice the writing the first time around. And Wizard's First Rule was good in that way. It was a fast read, and there was barely any preaching (except a bit by Richard in the Mud People's land). Hmm. And there it is.

I'm still gonna read Confessor, though. 'cause I want to know what happens. And I'll probably enjoy it, reading it once.

[Moosicus]

Regarding the Facebook discussion, I always find it amusing when people claim that kicking Violet was completely justified. Some people (on the board that shall not be named) at least claim that Ol' Dick had been driven mad by the torture. The one's that claim it was justified self-defense really irritate me, since Violet no longer had the electric butt-plug of pain when she got kicked. Denna was completely in charge until Violet stuck her tongue out at Dick (the red flag that made his "thing" rise). I think a lot of these people could use a re-read. I think the only thing that irritates me more is the constant repetition of Goodkindisms like "pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent", etc. It's as annoying as religious nuts who have some ready bible passage to quote at you regarding any topic. Goodkindisms, however, are almost universally empty bullshit. May as well quote Bazooka Joe comics.

[Alytha]

In one of those moment when I can't quite distinguish between reality and fiction, I had this idea: what if the Zodiac killer was Richard Rahl?

All the facts fit:

- dressing in black with arcane symbols

- meaningless violence

- thinking that he's smarter than the authorities

- pretty tall

- bad sense of prose

- disappeared without a trace

Wait..maybe..if it can't be Richard, because, thank the gods, he's not real, maybe it was his "father"? How old was Tairy in the late 60s?

[WLU]

Unless it portrays you in a bad light. : P

I stand by my original statement and steal your

With all of the flak that Jean Auel is taking in the "Bad" threads, it makes me wish I was better at parodies...I might need to re-read some Auel to come up with something...

Plus, you get all of the naughty sex of Sword of Truth with none of the rape. Except in the first book. But after that, clear fucking sailing.

Regarding the Facebook discussion, I always find it amusing when people claim that kicking Violet was completely justified. Some people (on the board that shall not be named) at least claim that Ol' Dick had been driven mad by the torture.

Even from a within-universe discussion, no ethics or reality involved, that's factually inaccurate. He'd partitioned his mind, he was completely sane in his actions. They know it's wrong and they're scrambling for justification.

The one's that claim it was justified self-defense really irritate me, since Violet no longer had the electric butt-plug of pain when she got kicked. Denna was completely in charge until Violet stuck her tongue out at Dick (the red flag that made his "thing" rise). I think a lot of these people could use a re-read.

Plus, his 'thing' rising is the second half of the magic from the Sword of Truth itself, which Denna had no control over. You know, the 'magic of forgiveness' or whatever bullshit Yeardi came up with; the opposite of anger. Basically he just forgave Vile-ette (think that was subtlety or coincidence on the yeard's part?), then used that brief lapse in control over his actions to KICK VIOLET IN THE JAW. The Yeard wanted an opportunity to indulge in a revenge fantasy and here was his chance to dues ex machina an opportunity. The SoT (the device, not the series) is one fucked up little bit of work, considering it either makes you insanely mad, then hurts you when you kill people, or lets you forgive them, then hurts you when you kill them. It doesn't make any sense, it's the most counter-intuitive magical artifact ever, in a long series of them (let's see, so far I've got the Boxes of Orden, the Sword of Truth, the Stone of Tears... am I forgetting anything?). Who makes them? Why are they just lying around?

I think the only thing that irritates me more is the constant repetition of Goodkindisms like "pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent", etc. It's as annoying as religious nuts who have some ready bible passage to quote at you regarding any topic. Goodkindisms, however, are almost universally empty bullshit. May as well quote Bazooka Joe comics.

See, that would be true IF the guilty all chose to be guilty, which they don't. Not all people are equal in their ability to influence their lives and further, what makes sense in a specific situation does not usually stand up well in the rigid courts of the 'justice' system. Judges and laws are trying to apply hard rules to what are generally very slippery and ambiguous situations in which even the parties involved never actually know what happened. And much of the time, I'm never 100% positive of my own motivation when I act. The only way that little aphorism would work is in a world where good and bad are clearly defined, and the bad choose to be bad, simply because they want to be bad and cause pain and suffering to others. It'd have to be some sort of made-up fantasy land, like... oh hold on. Pity for the guilty acknowledges that sometimes circumstances are beyond their control and sometimes situations have no good outcomes. It allows for the ambiguities of the world and allows society and those who judge to retain a measure of their humanity. It is the rare case where the guilty party is so contemptible and self-culpable that you can actually regard them as unambiguously evil. Serial killers who do so for pleasure are one of the rare cases in my mind, and the media charicatures of guilty individuals in general are not really helpful in my mind. If you can watch Monster and not feel that she is simultaneously a victim and a victimizer, well, I feel sorry for you.

It's frightening that Tairy's world appears to be more real to them than, well, the real one. The Yeardites appear to be America's answer to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. No apologies there, I think the man's nuts. Of course, that doesn't mean I think we should drop nuclear weapons on the entire country, which is probably what separates me from the Yeardites.

ETA a bunch of stuff.

[The Wolf Maid]

Regarding the Facebook discussion, I always find it amusing when people claim that kicking Violet was completely justified. Some people (on the board that shall not be named) at least claim that Ol' Dick had been driven mad by the torture. The one's that claim it was justified self-defense really irritate me, since Violet no longer had the electric butt-plug of pain when she got kicked. Denna was completely in charge until Violet stuck her tongue out at Dick (the red flag that made his "thing" rise).

I think some can safely say this part was when Goodkind stopped writing and began to furiously masturbate, because that whole scene just reeked of self-gratification. Deanna was in control, Richard had 'forgiven' Violet, and then WHAM! Kick in the jaw.

If Richard had kicked Violet in the jaw because he was defending himself and that was the only way out, I would have been more accepting.

(Was he really able to escape after that? IIRC he was still stuck there, wasn't he?)

[WLU]

(Was he really able to escape after that? IIRC he was still stuck there, wasn't he?)

Yup, still stuck. The kick in the jaw accomplished absolutely nothing. I think it did make Denna angry.

[The Wolf Maid]

Yup, still stuck. The kick in the jaw accomplished absolutely nothing. I think it did make Denna angry.

Then he was also an idiot. Pulling a stunt like that would have made his enemies angrier, and since he's still stuck in the dungeon....

I guess I mustn't blame TG. He probably didn't have much blood supply in the brain while writing this scene; it had all gone to his cock.

[Jaxom 1974]

Which thread had the "Kick Heard 'Round the Jaw"? Methinks we need to have it up front and center again...damn the restrictions on QotD!

[MinDonner]

Ask, and ye shall receive...

[The Real Will]

I thought that I'd chime in and try and back Min up on the Facebook thing. My post was long and I have a sneaking feeling that I missed that points that I'd really planned to make, but it's there. I'm really curious to see if anyone answers it.

[PhelanArcetus]

Now I don't think anyone can deny that Violet deserved punishment. And correction. She's a vile little snot, clearly.

But shattering her jaw and half-severing her tongue with a kick is basically nothing more than vengeance and rage. It's got nothing to do with correction, rehabilitation, or any such thing. When you punish someone for bad behavior, you make it very clear to the person that the punishment (be it spanking, grounding, imprisonment, or whatever) is because of one or more specific acts of wrongdoing. You additionally make it clear that you don't want to do this, you take no pleasure from it, and the purpose is to convince them to not do the incorrect things in the future. Execution is only an appropriate form of justice in the case of someone who simply cannot be redeemed.

Violet deserved punishment. What she got was an arbitrary beating. Regularly in SoT, someone who has done wrong (and in some cases, that is simply going against Richard or Kahlan, not something which is actually wrong), receives not justice for the crime, but retribution. When there's a war on, and a soldier of one army kills a soldier of the other army, however important, the side portrayed as civilized should quickly kill the enemy soldier after capturing him. Not torture him to death over the course of more than a day.

Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent? I have trouble conceiving of that. I mean, we're not talking about some sort of ridiculous situation here where a burglar is claiming that he only robbed a house because the owners had such lax security precautions that he couldn't help himself. (I did actually read a book in which the convicted burglar was allowed to sue the people he robbed, claiming that it was their fault he committed the crime.) If someone does wrong, I can pity them for not being able to discern right from wrong, or for not being able to resist baser urges and do wrong when they know that it is wrong. That does not affect justice. It doesn't mean that they will get lax treatment. It means that they will be treated like human beings who did something wrong, rather than tortured or gang-raped to death, put through unnecessary suffering that serves no purpose except the gratification of the most visceral and uncivilized urges of the victim or those who knew the victim. Which is exactly what Goodkind regularly provides.

[The Real Will]

Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent? I have trouble conceiving of that.

This is because you are soft headed... and a suspect pinko-commie-fascist.

In all seriousness, it seems to me that the Violet thing is one of the more difficult points to argue, because once someone says that she deserved it because she tortured Richard and threatened Kahlan and was basically reprehensible, then there is nowhere to go but to argue back and forth over what one actually has to do to deserve to be kicked in the jaw, and whether or not children should be held to the same standard. Which are reasonable points to debate but the whole thing drifts so far away from the point that it's ridiculous.

[Dycedarg]

Anyone who likes Goodkind enough to actually defend the man seems to view the world through the same cracked lens as the Yearded One, meaning that anything Richard or Kahlan does is Good and anyone who even looks at them oddly is Evil and deserves whatever they get. They're sort of like the Borg: Logic is futile.

[PhelanArcetus]

WE ARE THE YEARD. YOU WILL BE GANG-RAPED. WE WILL PROVE YOUR CULTURAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL DISTINCTIVENESS IS INFERIOR TO OUR OWN. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

[MinDonner]

In all seriousness, it seems to me that the Violet thing is one of the more difficult points to argue, because once someone says that she deserved it because she tortured Richard and threatened Kahlan and was basically reprehensible, then there is nowhere to go but to argue back and forth over what one actually has to do to deserve to be kicked in the jaw, and whether or not children should be held to the same standard. Which are reasonable points to debate but the whole thing drifts so far away from the point that it's ridiculous.

Indeed. One of the arguments that just came up was the fact that "Violet came back several books later and she was still evil, so obviously Richard was right", which is the kind of comedy circular logic that we all love.

Thanks for chipping in over there, by the way - even if we can't get the Yeardlings to visit, at least we can debate with them elsewhere without getting banned for disagreeing. If they start getting nasty though I'll be off like a shot, it's starting to edge that way already.

[WLU]

Now I don't think anyone can deny that Violet deserved punishment. And correction. She's a vile little snot, clearly.

But once again we are set up for a false choice - Violet is a charicature of small-minded revenge and malice so we can feel vindicated in hating and punishing her. She's not a real person, she is a strawgirl written in such a way that when she takes the kick to the face we don't feel bad and in fact, feel just a little bit good. The point is not that people like that don't exist, it's that yeardi deliberately conceived of and wrote her so he could feel justified in writing a scene about her punishment. Further, if we can believe what he says then he has had this image floating in his head possibly for years, and wrote it as a form of catharsis. How disturbing is that?

Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent? I have trouble conceiving of that. I mean, we're not talking about some sort of ridiculous situation here where a burglar is claiming that he only robbed a house because the owners had such lax security precautions that he couldn't help himself. (I did actually read a book in which the convicted burglar was allowed to sue the people he robbed, claiming that it was their fault he committed the crime.)

And it was a comedy, wasn't it? Sorry, an intentional comedy, as opposed to the celerious piece of trash we're faced with.

Anyone who likes Goodkind enough to actually defend the man seems to view the world through the same cracked lens as the Yearded One, meaning that anything Richard or Kahlan does is Good and anyone who even looks at them oddly is Evil and deserves whatever they get. They're sort of like the Borg: Logic is futile.

Now don't forget we're trying to play nicely to tempt Samantha into providing us with a reasonable discussion. Painting all Yeardites with the same brush portrays them as a monolithic entity and polarizes the world into black and white, us and them. And I for one, would like to see the rare Grey-Speckled Yeardite make an appearance, well, anywhere. Please Samantha, I promise not to judge you on spelling or grammar and I will do my best to give you a rational discussion. I make no promise for my fellow lemmings of discord who, despite the name, refuse to follow their leader (me, High Keeper of the Butt-Plug of Pain, Warden of it's Yeardly Batteries).

Last point, we're getting close to Goodkind XX and need a new title. I'm still rooting for 'Putting lie to your purpose". I also present for your review "The scab you just keep picking" and "Best thread ever". Say, here's some more honey for the pot - I offer that if we fail to give Samantha's ideas a reasonable reception, she gets to name the next Goodkind thread. Can we get an uninvolved mod to sign off on this?

[MinDonner]

I don't think she'll play, alas. But I like the idea of taking the next title from a Yeardling quote. "Putting the lie to our existence", or "Pitying the guilty and betraying the innocent", or even "We deserve victory!", perhaps?

[Red Templar]

I like "Pitying the guilty and betraying the innocent." That would be one for the ages.

[WLU]

I like "Pitying the guilty and betraying the innocent." That would be one for the ages.

I like 'betraying the innocent', it's pithy. The two together is a bit long for my rarefied tastes. Perhaps one as the thread title and one as the sub-title?

[Red Templar]

I like 'betraying the innocent', it's pithy. The two together is a bit long for my rarefied tastes. Perhaps one as the thread title and one as the sub-title?

Beautiful. I like it. I like it a lot. It just works.