I renounce R+L=J! (wanring, it's pretty long)

[Winter Crow]

I renounce R+L=J!
I renounce the theory that was once great but now annoys me beyond limits.
I renounce the many fanatic believers, who apparently have nothing better to do than proclaim their theory the best one on earth!

Now, with all those harsh words said and half of the world's fanboys glaring angrily at my house, planning how to best get in and slit my throat without the police noticing, allow me to sort a few things out:
-No, this is not another R+L= NOT JON thread. I am NOT saying that this theory is wrong, nor that it is right. This thread must be fully neutral, I demand that of both sides (the pro R+L=J guys and the con R+L=J guys).
-No, I am not a believer of N+A=J.
-No, I'm NOT a flamer. Funny as this may sound, trust me, I'm not.
-No, I don't want to start some forum-spanning civil war between the two "sides" (the pro R+L=J guys and the con R+L=J guys).
-And no, I don't have any other theory that I think is right.

Then what is this thread for, you might ask yourself, if not for debating the true parentage of Jon?
Well, it is meant as one big criticism of all the R+L=J believers out there (again, please trust me when I say that I am not a flamer).

When one posts a theory, you know that it might or might not be true. It has yet to carried out in proof. Some theories can't be carried out in proof, as would be the case with R+L=J, because GRRM hasn't given as the final pieces of information (the last books) that is needed to pierce together the real meaning of the theory.
Now, some theories become increasingly popular, which is the case with R+L=J. There's nothing wrong with this, especially not with R+L=J, since it is a perfectly valid theory that has many good points. Unfortunenately many theories have a tendency to be worshipped by the masses, and polluted and misunderstood.
Sadly, I believe this has happened with R+L=J.

Whenever I hear R+L=J mentioned in any thread, it is almost always as if it was concrete proof. When someone tries to say that it is still a theory and still needs to be proven, he is often steamrolled, and the thread escalates in an annoying debate between the guys who believe in one thing or the other.
Of course this might happen. That is to be expected when two big theories, that opose each other, colides. The problem is; Neither of the theories are about the theories anymore, but rather just one big flamewar.
The R+L=J Topic is filled to the limit with talks about genetics and various prattle about were X character was at Y time. If someone wishes to learn more about either theory, there is nowhere to go. I mean, I haven't heard a serious argument for R+L=J in ages, which is a bloody shame because it is such an interresting theory. Many people merely accept the fact that it's there, and it's got it's own sticky topic, which almost raises it to godlike status.

Ah man, I'm really making a royal mess of this. I know that a lot of people could have said this much better than I did. But I just believed it had to be said.
My point is:
Don't just accept R+L=J or N+A=J without proof or anything. When someone questions either theory, calmly start raising your points about why your theory is right and why the other is wrong. And don't just come with proofs about why the other theory is wrong, like when people say "Well, Ashara and Ned weren't together at the time Jon was concieved". That is a totally good point to raise, and perhaps the most often used. The problem is, people don't take their time to explained WHY Ned and Ashara weren't, and why Lianna and Rhaegar was.
That is all I ask from you guys. A little respect for the opposition, and try to raise arguments, not just demolish your opponent's.

Okay, I'm sorry if I may have offended any people out there with my harsh words about the believers of R+L=J. And I REALLY apologize for the mess of my text. Heck, it doesn't even make sense to me. I just hope you guys won't only read the Topic Title, but also the topic itself, and try not to lynch me to badly, even though I might deserve it for my screwed up topic :/...

Now, lets see if I survive the night... And no, I'm not drunk...

(Ah great, I even managed to screw up the Topic Title :lol:!)

[israfel070]

Writers intend for readers to wonder about the mysteries they present. GRRM has indirectly called ?+?=J the "greatest mystery of my series." Of course he wants us to look at all of his clues and debate them, it's a writer's wet dream to have people care so much about their stories.

You're missing the point.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Winter Crow, welcome to the dark side... I've raised that exact same argument a time or two. Thank you. :cheers:

[Rumarumo]

But I think you're missing the point too, israfel070. All Winter Crow is saying is that sometimes the theories are treated as canon, and anyone who says otherwise is shushed, and that it shouldn't be so.

[Kimera757]

Who is the A in N+A?

[Rumarumo]

Arthur Dayne.

:smug:



Edit: Sorry, just wanted my 50th post. Ashara Dayne + Ned = Jon is another theory.

[DomDayne]

Ashara isn't it?

Oops, didn't see the rest of the above post :)

[The_BlauerDragon]

Well... Plugging the various formulas (or the closest I could get to them) into the periodic table of elements did not produce any interesting compounds, so... I'll just have to remain in the camp of "let's treat the theories as theories and not take either side as canon"

[the silent speaker]

Structurally, I think R+L=J doesn't really fit the 'profile' of Martin mysteries. Let me explain:
1. Martin initially intended books 1-3 to be a single volume. That hasn't been the case for a long time, but the fossils of that prehistoric beast may still leave traces.
2. The great mysteries of that volume were originally "who killed Jon Arryn?" and "who sent Bran the knife?" This is not to say there is not another overarching great mystery of the series -- there is -- but this is for [i]A Game of Clashing Storms[/i] taken alone. ('AGOCS' is shorter; let us call it that.) AGOCS's place in the overall series -- and by extension, its role in the overarching mystery of ASOIAF -- is approximately as AGOT's place in AGOCS.
3. Observe how those mysteries were crafted. They show up early, and presented as perplexities as soon as they occur; clues are laid throughout, but if a purported solution is proffered by anyone for any reason, it is immediately or shortly thereafter called directly into question. Exemplar, it must have been Tyrion who sent the knife, because he won it from me at a tourney -- not so, says Tyrion, because assertion that I won a bet at that tourney contradicts the fact that I never bet against my family. Finally, at the end of AGOCS, the true solution is revealed -- Littlefinger acting through Lysa with Jon Arryn, Joff with the knife -- and in hindsight all the smaller clues, the points that seemingly ruled out everybody else even as we were gently led to not look in the proper direction, make perfect sense.
4. Contrast how Jon's parentage is presented. When first raised, there is no mystery -- Ned says her name was Wylla straight off and nothing there gives the reader any inkling that this might not be so. All the major points brought by R+L=Jers come from significantly later in the story. No one within the story brings up any objections that mystify the issue if it is raised; on the contrary, Edric Dayne confirms Ned Stark's assertion outright. (This is not to say that young Ned is an unimpeachable witness, but the point here is that he is reinforcing the 'putative' solution, rather than calling it into question, as a participant in a mystery ought to do.) [i]Very unlike[/i] the situations with Arryn and Bran, the casual reader here has a clear answer with little to discommend it, rather than a bafflement with seemingly no unassailable answer.
5. I conclude that R+L=J is not the mystery you're looking for. Rhaegar's conduct in a broader sense, tangentially involving Lyanna, [i]is[/i] part of it, I do think, as is a good deal more inluding the Long Summer, the Others' return, and the Doom of Valyria; but "what was Rhaegar thinking?" and "who is Jon Snow's mother?" are decidedly different questions.

[The Anti-Targ]

Just to declare my hand: J=R+L is my preferred choice over the other hypotheses advanced thus far. Though oddly not so much because I WANT Jon to be a hidden Targ (since I'm not exactly a Targ lover). But because I DON'T want hidden Targs to crawl out from under a rock, and I am convinced L had a child by R. In like manner I REALLY don't want R's Dornish crossbreds to come crawling out of a rock. If L turns out not to have had a child by R (ar at least a living one) then I don't really care one way or the other about Jon's mum and dad.

I disagree that every time this theory is mentioned, in threads not specifically about the theory, the culprits write in absolute terms. I've often seen posts with phrases like "If R+L=J is true then...". Perhaps follow up posts might start degenerating, but often the theory is not treated as canon/heresy in threads dedicated to other subjects.

[Cersei's #1 Fan]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1693079' date='Feb 19 2009, 18.59']Structurally, I think R+L=J doesn't really fit the 'profile' of Martin mysteries. Let me explain:
1. Martin initially intended books 1-3 to be a single volume. That hasn't been the case for a long time, but the fossils of that prehistoric beast may still leave traces.
2. The great mysteries of that volume were originally "who killed Jon Arryn?" and "who sent Bran the knife?" This is not to say there is not another overarching great mystery of the series -- there is -- but this is for [i]A Game of Clashing Storms[/i] taken alone. ('AGOCS' is shorter; let us call it that.) AGOCS's place in the overall series -- and by extension, its role in the overarching mystery of ASOIAF -- is approximately as AGOT's place in AGOCS.
3. Observe how those mysteries were crafted. They show up early, and presented as perplexities as soon as they occur; clues are laid throughout, but if a purported solution is proffered by anyone for any reason, it is immediately or shortly thereafter called directly into question. Exemplar, it must have been Tyrion who sent the knife, because he won it from me at a tourney -- not so, says Tyrion, because assertion that I won a bet at that tourney contradicts the fact that I never bet against my family. Finally, at the end of AGOCS, the true solution is revealed -- Littlefinger acting through Lysa with Jon Arryn, Joff with the knife -- and in hindsight all the smaller clues, the points that seemingly ruled out everybody else even as we were gently led to not look in the proper direction, make perfect sense.
4. Contrast how Jon's parentage is presented. When first raised, there is no mystery -- Ned says her name was Wylla straight off and nothing there gives the reader any inkling that this might not be so. All the major points brought by R+L=Jers come from significantly later in the story. No one within the story brings up any objections that mystify the issue if it is raised; on the contrary, Edric Dayne confirms Ned Stark's assertion outright. (This is not to say that young Ned is an unimpeachable witness, but the point here is that he is reinforcing the 'putative' solution, rather than calling it into question, as a participant in a mystery ought to do.) [i]Very unlike[/i] the situations with Arryn and Bran, the casual reader here has a clear answer with little to discommend it, rather than a bafflement with seemingly no unassailable answer.
5. I conclude that R+L=J is not the mystery you're looking for. Rhaegar's conduct in a broader sense, tangentially involving Lyanna, [i]is[/i] part of it, I do think, as is a good deal more inluding the Long Summer, the Others' return, and the Doom of Valyria; but "what was Rhaegar thinking?" and "who is Jon Snow's mother?" are decidedly different questions.[/quote]

That your entire argument rests solely on the belief that GRRM would present all his mystery's in the exact same manner is so inane that it hurts my brain. Also to the fact the R+L=J would have major significance you would think he would try to throw off the reader a bit and present it in a way different than his normal M.O. This is what usually happens when people challenge R+L=J nowadays. Instead of basing their arguments on information from the books they often resort to calling the theory cliche, or something like you're doing, attacking not the evidence but that theory isn't GRRM "style" or some other silly belief that you made up in your own mind due to your "[i]extensive[/i]" knowledge of GRRM inner thoughts.

I support R+L=J based on what I've read I think its the much more likely theory. I don't treat it like canon but when I develop theories on future events I tend to form them around the idea of R+L=J being true.

[snookyrump]

I fervently hope that GRRM gets the last laugh and proves us ALL wrong.

R+L=J makes too much sense to actually happen, IMO. George has something different in mind, I believe.

[Shewoman]

Note Israfel's post #2 on this thread, where Martin says Jon's parentage is "the greatest mystery of my series." It sounds like he intended it to raise a lot of questions. And, Silent Speaker, I don't think I'd expect what the author calls the most important of the mysteries in the series to fit the same pattern as the other mysteries he gives us.

When the question of Jon's parentage is first raised within the book, it's not a simple manner. The first time it comes up, it's Catelyn who raises the issue, wondering if Ned's wartime lover was Ashara Dayne. Ned shuts her down so harshly she never asks again. Cersei also has questions about Jon's mother; I believe she suggests that Ned was perhaps in Dorne recently. She also raises the question of why Ashara killed herself ("For the brother you killed or the child you stole?") Robert is at best the third person we're aware of who asked Ned about Jon's parentage and even then Ned tries the best he can to get out of the conversation. He finally says "Wylla," but it's certainly not the first thing out of his mouth. This conversation occurred years, I think, after the ones I've mentioned earlier. It took place in the Winterfell crypt when Robert and his entourage visited Winterfell.

[Szar]

Shewoman, you're slightly wrong. Cersei's comment is from the conversation where Ned reveals his knowledge to her, and Robert's conversation with Ned happens when they ride off during the trek through the north.

[SFDanny]

Winter Crow, I think you are mistaking the relatively large number of people on this site who think R+L=J is likely with a very few who think it is "canon." There is no canon unless it is written down by Mr. George R. R. Martin in an actual book in this series. Even then it can be changed anytime he wants to change it. That shouldn't stop all those who love his work from trying to figure out what the hell he is doing with the story. It's great fun, and as most obsessions go, pretty damn harmless. If someone makes the mistake of saying R+L=J is proven fact, then correct them by all means. Just leave all the rest of us who have argued the case for R+L=J out of the broad brush of condemnation of the few who make the error that you rightly point out.

I could just as easily point to the few who argue against R+L=J based on the curious basis that they just don't want it to happen that way. Those few don't represent a serious view of alternatives to R+L=J. Everyone is entitled to their own wish list for the series, but it makes for very tedious reading to see this kind of silliness put forward as analysis of the books. Still, the idea of flaming those who want to express this idea doesn't help very much. So too with what I think is the very small group you point to. Does it really do a lot of good to start a thread about them? When it happens, if it makes you feel better, say something and let's move on.

[Milk of the Poppy]

[quote name='israfel070' post='1693004' date='Feb 20 2009, 00.13']Writers intend for readers to wonder about the mysteries they present. GRRM has indirectly called ?+?=J the "greatest mystery of my series." Of course he wants us to look at all of his clues and debate them, it's a writer's wet dream to have people care so much about their stories.
You're missing the point.[/quote]
Writer's wet dream? I'm not so sure. I don't suppose GRRM actually bothers to read much of what is discussed here (at least I hope he doesn't), but he must still be aware in general terms of what's going on. If I were a writer and I had a really neat plotline in my head I would be pretty annoyed if an important part of that plotline would be guessed in advance. What to do? Think of an alternative plotline that is probably less plausible than the original one or proceed and be accused of predictability? Internet truly is a double-edged sword for today's writers, especially for those in the middle of a series.

[Horza]

Another point to make is that this board is... special.

We're obsessives. We're close readers. We're not your average ASOIAF fans. Most people read these books for fun, because they're awesome (the books). They don't linger over every page wondering if the black tom Arya chases around the Red Keep is Rhaenys's kitty or wether Brienne is Duncan the Tall's great-granddaughter. I'd be amazed if half ASOIAFs readership knew about R+L=J.

Jons parentage has not emerged as a major plot point four books into the series, and the foundations of R+L=J are at present circumstantial. I think the evidence is fairly strong, and stronger than any alternative explanations but it is a hypothesis, and still reliant on liberal amounts of speculation.

[the silent speaker]

Israfel, link plz?

[quote]That your entire argument rests solely on the belief that GRRM would present all his mystery's in the exact same manner is so inane that it hurts my brain.[/quote]
This argument rests on his modus operandi. There are others but this is the one I was putting out in that post.

[Cersei's #1 Fan]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1693384' date='Feb 20 2009, 01.10']Israfel, link plz?


This argument rests on his modus operandi. There are others but this is the one I was putting out in that post.[/quote]

Do you get the point of my statement? You saying that because his M.O is a certain way, that must mean that he can't change it. It makes no sense especially in a situation where you'd expect him to change i.e. a situation where he wants to throw off most readers. Having a normal M.O doesn't mean he's has to be one dimensional on how he presents his mystery. R+L=J clues are never overt and always subtext that you have to piece together. This leads me to believe that he trying to foreshadow without making it blatantly obvious to most readers.

[quote]3. Observe how those mysteries were crafted. They show up early, and presented as perplexities as soon as they occur; clues are laid throughout, but if a purported solution is proffered by anyone for any reason, it is immediately or shortly thereafter called directly into question. Exemplar, it must have been Tyrion who sent the knife, because he won it from me at a tourney -- not so, says Tyrion, because assertion that I won a bet at that tourney contradicts the fact that I never bet against my family. Finally, at the end of AGOCS, the true solution is revealed -- Littlefinger acting through Lysa with Jon Arryn, Joff with the knife -- and in hindsight all the smaller clues, the points that seemingly ruled out everybody else even as we were gently led to not look in the proper direction, make perfect sense.[/quote]

And now that I think about it does kinda of fit GRRM M.O as you present it here.

[u]They show up early[/u]- Cat wondering about the identify of Jon's mother extremely early in AGoT.
[u]presented as perplexities as soon as they occur[/u]- Check
[u]clues are laid throughout[/u]- Check
[u]but if a purported solution is proffered by anyone for any reason, it is immediately or shortly thereafter called directly into question[/u]- Cat believing it was Ashara, then Ned saying it was Wylla.
[u]the true solution is revealed[/u]- we haven't gotten there yet... unless you [i]want[/i] to believe Ned but we have been given enough reason to judge him as being possibly a unreliable narrator.

Certainly seems to fit your definition of his "M.O"

[baxus]

[quote name='Milk of the Poppy' post='1693243' date='Feb 20 2009, 03.19']If I were a writer and I had a really neat plotline in my head I would be pretty annoyed if an important part of that plotline would be guessed in advance. What to do? Think of an alternative plotline that is probably less plausible than the original one or proceed and be accused of predictability?[/quote]
my thoughts exactly!
let's go with an asumption that R+L=J... many of the fans have sniffed this out and broadcast it all over internet... when the final confirmation comes, we will all just go "oh, that's it then"... there will be no emotion that GRRM aimed for, like there was with other defining moments of the series (ned's death, dragons' hatching, the red wedding, tywin's death, "things i do for love", finding the direwolves, jon vs halfhand etc.)
on the other hand, if GRRM chooses to change his plot, he is at risk of making it sound forced, as if someone twisted his arm into doing that (but i think he as a writer deserves more credit than that)

if it were me, i'd leave the whole issue unresolved and let the chips fall where they may!
fanatics will bitch about it to no end, but they would do the same if their theory was proven wrong (whether it was R+L=J, or not)
after all, it's not nearly as important issue as some people like to think...