Lord of Raventree Hall

No they weren’t. They had made peace with Tytos. Read the material again. Tywin caused the rebellion. Tywin essentially did everything in his power to make sure he could humble the two houses because he didn’t like being laughed at. Tytos, THE ACTUAL LORD, forgave their crimes. Much of Tywin’s actions were actually probably illegal, then that would require Tytos to prosecute his son (which is doubtful). He is totalitarian. Anyone who does anything he doesn’t like is punished. He uses fear to keep his vassals in line. Totalitarian is a modern definition, however it is fairly clear that Tywin allows NO opposition under his rule. Hell, people are worried to JOKE about these things around Tywin. He is a horrible person, and he belongs in near pure evil. “Tywin demanded repayment of his father's loans and all who could not pay were ordered to send hostages to Casterly Rock. Kevan formed a new company of five hundred veterans to aid Tywin. Lord Roger Reyne, Ellyn's older brother, laughed when he read Tywin's edicts and advised his friends and vassals to do nothing. Lord Walderan Tarbeck hoped to convince Tytos to rescind Tywin's edicts and traveled to Casterly Rock, but was instead imprisoned by Tywin.[1] In return, his wife Ellyn seized three Lannisters – two Lannisters of Lannisport, and Stafford Lannister, whose sister Joanna was betrothed to Tywin – and threatened them harm unless her husband was returned. Tytos ignored Tywin's suggestion of sending Lord Walderan back to his wife in three pieces, one for every Lannister taken, and instead returned Walderan unharmed. In addition, he forgave the Tarbeck debt to House Lannister.[3][1] Ser Tywin Lannister remained determined to defeat the disloyal vassals of House Lannister. In 261 AC, less then a year after the exchange of captives, Tywin sent ravens to Tarbeck Hall and Castamere demanding answers for their crimes at Casterly Rock. As he had expected, Lord Roger and Ser Reynard Reyne, as well Lord Walderan and Lady Ellyn Tarbeck, rose in rebellion, renouncing their fealthy to Casterly Rock.[1] Without the permission of Lord Tytos Lannister, Tywin marched against the upstart vassals with three thousand men-at-arms and crossbowmen and five hundred knights.[1] According to a semi-canon source, the host was joined on the march by troops from House Marbrand and House Prester, as well as a dozen lesser lords,[2] although The World of Ice & Firedoes not appear to count these soldiers.[N 4]”

Fuck boys don’t at all have the image that bad boys do. They look more like frat boys (from my era) then like “the boy from the wrong side of the tracks who is tormented and just needs the right woman to tame him”. Watch some romantic comedies. Trust me, none of those men are fuck boys, lol. It’s not. He is being sexist. Hm, you know I haven’t had this conversation in a long time, but why not? I remember once a long time ago when I was but a boy (lol okay ill stop). In high school, 3 dudes rolled up in their car next to me and my friend. They were for no apparent reason looking for a fight. One dude got out of his car and quite literally slapped my friend. My friend had good reason to be pissed of course. He had just been slapped. He then used racist language while cussing out the men in question. See the men were Black. It took a long time, but after A LOT of explaining, he finally understood. Being racist wasn’t okay even though he was pissed. It wasn’t reasonable. If the men in question had been white, no racist language would have been used. I don’t give a fuck that Gerris’s friend just died. Guess what Gerris didn’t do? Cuss out the Tattered Prince. Cuss out Doran Martell (who is really at fault for them being there). Cuss out any man. He turned his mysigonist anger out on Daenerys, and that is never excusable in any situation. I don’t care what happened beforehand. Daenerys was getting married and Quentyn showed up too late. Quentyn doesn’t cuss her out. Cletus Yronwood doesn’t cuss her out. Only Gerris does, because Gerris is revealing something about his worldview in the words he chooses and the person he blames. The same as my friend, if Sansa was turned down in the same situation (lets say Harry is already promised to another) and then Sansa dies under similar circumstances, I garuntee no one would blame Harry. No one. Because there is no sexist expectation that men have to say yes to “nice girls”.

No. Jaime’s version of event is probably extremely close to accurate. It was a horrifying and traumatizing experience.

Hmm leave him alone, eh? For example, make a peace treaty with his dad in exchange for hostages? Wait he then committed a familicide shortly after that. Or how Aerys actually trusted him to come in the city, and then he brutally sacked that city? Or wait, I remember now how the Riverlands did literally anything to him. Wait! They didn’t! He just invaded because his son was held by someone speaking for the North and held in the Eyrie. And Robb Stark was going North, …in fact going to leave him alone, so he signed off on yet another familicide. Or lets take a small example : Masha Heddle literally just existed…and he murdered her for existing. I doubt he even cared that was where Tyrion was captured. Tywin fanboys are delusional, Tywin is one of the most evil characters in the books and its ridiculous that anyone could possibly think otherwise. “Tywin’s just logical and machevullian. It makes some sense to murder whole families because they laugh at you. He just carries on a war of terror, he is literally a terrorist, but that is logical. Totally logical to horrifyingly murder people as much as possible!” - Horrifying. Just horrifying. Also, a note, but really - By this logic, you could support any totalitarian state. It’s just logical because you have to enforce order and everyone has to do what you say, am I right bro? Any totalitarian leader is perfectly fine and not evil^^ Right? And if you have no war for 20 years, than, welp, that makes your rule completely justifiable! I believe Kim Jung Un hasn’t had any wars during his reign, so good news everyone! Kim Jung Un is not evil at all! He is totally justified because he brought peace to North Korea! (yes this last paragraph was sarcastic as hell) PS - I remember how Rhaenys, baby Aegon, and Elia of Dorne really attacked Tywin first. Since he leaves anyone alone who doesn't attack him right?

I can't decide actually. Euron may actually be quite human. The scenes were we actually see his behavior, he seems ..... like a real person. He is like a cult leader or something, lol. Sadly the entire Ironborn are buying into that cult. Now granted, his lack of care for human life...is on another scale, but I see some of the same classic GRRM ...actually acting like a real person when we see him in person (through Victorian's PoV on the Shield Islands was the main one I am referring too.) I think we see a lot of fans actually playing inot Euron's own glorified image of himself,a nd that actually he will be very human as he is exposed more to the story. I.e. I think Euron will fail. I think we will see he isn't some god-like character pulling tons of strings, and he will mess up, misjudge, and ultimately be very fallible. Doesn't mean he isn't tricking Victorian (he probably is), but the more extreme theories I think will just be wrong.

You know there is a general dislike of these threads, which I get as they are repetitive. But the wall is currently full right now of a bunch of ridiculous theories related to like…very specific clues that probably don’t exist…using language in the books, like GRRM is a riddler instead of an author. I will take a moral scaling conversation over a GRRM riddler conversation where every word in the book is secretly a clue to some other thing (usually something that sounds nothing like anything GRRM would actually write). Or my least favoritr topics : Ridiculous theories that make no sense, require you to ignore large swaths of contrary evidence, and in many cases have 0 actual evidence to suppoet them. Examples : Anything with Howland Reed. A lot of the “this person is a puppet of this other person”. People in a another tread said Daario was a puppet of Euron for example (rolls eyes). This person is secretly some other person (in some cases these theories make sense…in other cases they don’t (GRRM has nit set up any mystery whatsoever and people are just imagining it). Or my least favorite : Tyrion is Aerys’s bastard. I really hate that one so much and it was super popular. Depite NO evidence. Unlike R+L=J which there was plenty of allusions to, the same is just NOT true of A+J=T. In fact, most of Tyrion’s arc FOCUSES on hiw much he is Tywin’s son. In direct contradiction of this therory. Anyways, I am done. Moral scaling by the way : Euron is the worst. Ramsay secomd worse. Tywin is worse than his fan boys will place him.

To be honest, I dislike Mance’s fake execution. Bran’s and Davos’s make sense, but …Melisandre fake executing Mance just makes 0 sense to me. Why? And more importantly, it spawns topics like this. Listen, Rickard and Brandn are dead. I will lay down money. Any takers. I say 200 USD that Rickard and Brandon are 100% dead. I am willing to put down that much money despite hating gambling because it essentially ISN’T a gamble

Lol, if your point is that people are justified in thinking that my partner is out of my league...I think that is kind of randomly cruel. However, I dated constantly in my 20s. I moved from date to date with ease, and had a new girlfriend within months of breaking up. I was obviously considered desirable. I am not saying I was considered drop dead gorgeous, but a combination of my personality and ...good enough looks (or from some perspectives, even good looks) was enough to have a lot of dating success. Again, in America, I doubt that would have ever happened...and not because Korean women are like....aiming down, lol, while American women are not settling or something like that...but literally because my looks are perceived differently. Many American women even have said to me that they wished their boyfriends were like me...but I know, they aren't attracted to me. That's the key. They think I'm ugly, so my personality cannot win out...but Korean women don't think I'm ugly, so it can. A note : Two of my girlfriends in Korea, even, to my shock, expressed the opinion that I was out of their league. I was shook to my very core when that happened. I didn't even know how to deal with it, particularly my first girlfriend in Korea, as I had not adjusted to the cultural change. Here we were BOTH thinking the other person was kind of out of each others league. And to further this argument, I even had Korean men also say this to me (about several of my exes). I am not an idiot who is misreading the situation, I know how I was perceived here. And you know what, it was really nice...for awhile in my life to be told I was good looking. I shower, I shave, I wear nice clothes, and I smile easily/often. If I was just 4 inches taller, I'd put money down, that American women would suddenly change their mind about me. That's it. Just 4 inches. But that's the thing, the average height in Korea...is about 4 inches shorter than America. It's really that simple. I would argue that Theon is..the kind of bad boy I think is fake then, lol. He is in no way charming. I love Theon...because of the struggle and personal identity he goes through, but ACoK Theon is 100% just an asshole to women, and his charm is paper thin. I was here defending bad boys, but...I guess if Theon is a bad boy, I have to admit that some people must be attracted to assholes...cause Theon is painfully obviously an asshole. If I met the woman version of Theon, ......actually what am I saying? I have one specific ex who was a complete asshole, and I dated her anyways. She was certainly more charming than Theon from my perspective.....but she was also certainly an obvious asshole. All of my female friends said, "Break up with her!" basically from day 1, lol.

Yes, that doesn’t seem like a bad boy that women would like at all. fuck boy and bad boy are certainly not the same thing lol. Eh, Gerris is being a douche and Barristan thinks so. Barristan wishes Daenerys looked Quentyn’s way because he wants to return ro Westeros, but unlike Gerris he sees Daenerys as a free woman who can make her own choices. A note : Although trying to tame a dragon was stupid, I think Quentyn is a fairly relatable character, and Quentyn unlike Gerris never talks shit about Daenerys, even in his own head. I don’t need to imagine being in Gerris’s shoes, I’ve been in similar situations lots of times…and I told my friends to move on, and didn’t talk shit about the women. Turning someone down…is an okay thing to do, and no one deserves to be insulted for it. i’ve also quite literally watched as men say the same exact things Gerris said to women who turn them down, and they are dicks. Again, Quentyn is basically fine. Gerris though, is a douchebag.

What y’all blindly saying Barbrey Dustin 100% hated the Starks are missing is this : She also 100% hates Ramsay Bolton, and I would argue she hates him MORE than rhe Starks by a signifigant margin. Honest question, who would you hate more? : Your coworker who’s bold new proposal got your husband fired, or your coworker who purposely under minded your favorite nephew in order to get him fired. Also he fires people of your gender for fun constantly. Also he is one of the most unpleasant people you’ve ever met. If you choose person 1, I honestly think you are just lying lol. Everyone, including Barbrey Dustin, would hate #2 more. She was speaking to Theon, who she believed will tell Ramsay or Roose everything she says. Period. You guys are giving her 0 credit and just taking her at her word, which makes no sense given the context of the situation. And she openly hates Ramsay. Guess who I never heard of her hating? Rickon Stark. Bran Stark. Sansa Stark.

No she didn’t. Delusional. This is a delusional take. It’s been awhile since I saw these kind of takes, and I will not pretend they make any sense upon their return. Jon Snow will cause more pain and death than most people if we think this way. Daenerys, Eddard, Tyrion, Stannis - Any noble with power as judgef through a similar lens would cause MORE problems then Catelyn. Did Catelyn push Tommen out a window? No that was Jaime. Did Catelyn have the Hanf secretly murdered? Nope tgat was Lysa and Petyr. Did Catelyn start a rebellion that killed thousands? Nope, that was first Tywin, then Robb, Stannis, and Renly. And in the past it was Robert and Eddard, and you can also blame Aerys, he certainly did more direct things then Catelyn did to cause Robert’s Rebellion. You are blaming Catelyn for deaths OTHERS much more directly caused, and you do not hold those others to the same standards you hold Catelyn (or dare I guess most female characters, as when people have made these takes in the past, they make similar takes about other women) Note : Let me direct. The one, and only act that Catelyn took that directly caused any death was capturing Tyrion. Because like 5-10 people died on the road to the Vale. After that, the death is all on other people’s shoulders. Stop blaming Catelyn for things other people did. Lysa treated Tyrion like crap, held a sham of a trial, and didn’t hold Tyrion to be traded for Eddard. Eddard lost the game all on his own in King’s Landing with a series of blunders. Robb decided to rebel and refused to find peace terms with the Lannisters. Tywin invaded the Riverlands (which makes 0 sense if you really thin about it) and carried out war that he had no plan of stopping once Tyrion was returned to him. Cersei played the Game of Thrones which led to Eddard’s death and Sansa’s imprisonment, and of course..murdered the King which really kicked things off. Renly and Stannis declared themselves Kings and rebelled against the Iron Throne.

He somehow got a treaty with the Lhazareen. I want to see how that played out by the way, lol. Daario at least appears to be, quite unsuited to diplomacy..yet he managed to sign a peace treaty/trade agreement, lol. But his real biggest accomplishment, if I had to guess, from Dany's perspective...not to be crude - He made her orgasm repeatedly. Sorry, not sorry, I said it. That's where the attraction is coming form. I'll see myself out now, lol. Just saying, the most abusive "bad girl" I ever dated.......was also the person...who you know...made me feel good in other ways that made me forget some of her more abusive/assholely traits. Ironically, I think most men actually understand this, as I've seen many men date verbally abusive women who they were obviously ...being tempted by something else to ignore those traits. Men, if anything, seem MORE easily convinced by this than women (though I think both genders suffer from it).

Wait! Theon????????????? Theon is ....a bad boy?????? I am shook right now, lol. Oh, and I think Daario is meant to be a bad boy, whether or not fans read him that way. I guess..my personal experience with moving to other countries has taught me how much culture determines attractiveness (To be blunt, I was considered ugly by Western standards. Too short and too skinny. In Korea, I was considered ...actively handsome in my 20s, and now...still average in my 30s. When Koreans meet my partner, they never once have commented on the "surprise" of how pretty she is, Western people do it all the time (presumably because they think I'm too ugly for her). Daenerys grew up in the Free Cities, she...just has a different idea of what it means to be attractive than we do.

I mean...Gerris is being a dick here. Barristan's reaction (and my reaction) to Gerris's behavior is bad. I would argue Ser Barristan respects Daario, at least in some ways, more than he respects Gerris. I've stated this so many times : But Daario is not dangerous to Daenerys. I understand he is violent (not really more than any other sellsword captain, but still), but from Daenerys's perspective, he poses no threat to her. He is a "bad boy", not a bad guy. He treats Daenerys with respect in....pretty much all of their interactions. Certainly more respect than say Ser Jorah has (he disregards her wants, and forces himself on her). As to Quentyn being a "nice guy" as compared to Daario....eh. How? First off, I like Quentyn..but is Quentyn actually...nicer to Daenerys? You missed the quotes where Ser Barristan points out VERY ACCURATELY that Quentyn is only there for Dorne and duty, NOT Daenerys. While as Ser Barristan does make the mud comparison for Quentyn, he also voices his displeasure at how Gerris frames things...because he doesn't believe in Quentyn's love for Daenerys for one second.

So, I have started my reread of...the released chapters of the Winds of Winter, and to continue my dive into Theon. 1. I wish Theon would just tell Stannis he didn't kill Bran or Rickon. I don't know how Stannis would react, but why not? Stannis's primary reason for executing Theon is that. But perhaps Theon wants to die, I'm not sure. 2. Theon wanted Asha to run to him and hug him. I wish he was even more direct about this than he was...but it is the first time I really saw Theon admitting what he really wants/his primary motivation really is : To be loved. He was a hostage who was kept at a distance and never allowed to "really" be a member of the family for most of his life. Despite this, his own biological family is even MORE distant than this hostage family, with his father/brothers essentially treat him like crap. Theon wants Asha to love him. He wanted Robb to love him. He wanted Eddard and Catelyn to love him. He wanted the Winterfell servants to love him like they loved the Starks. Theon wanted to be loved. The saddest part is it sounds like his mother DID love him, and he didn't go see her. But ...I think I understand that part the most. "Instead of rushing forward to embrace him, she had taken half a step backwards." - This is the line where I think he is admitting what he wanted. 3. I don't want Theon to die, and I know how unrealistic it is. I want him to continue on a path to redemption. I want him to finally be loved because he finally embraces people without his fake confidence/fake smile and instead with true feelings/wants. I know it won't happen, but I want it so bad. 4. I know this is too personal, but....Theon has inspired me to redouble my efforts to love myself. How much I want Theon to have a happier ending has made me realize...if I can give Theon a chance at love, if I believe he deserves love. Then so do I. So here is for GRRM accidentally giving some therapy by making me love a character that at one point I absolutely hated (here is hoping that one day I can love myself in that same way). Peace out y'all.

No one cares about this feed, but whatever. Barristan honestly just seems very competent in his final chapter. He honestly kind of did..what Eddard should have done. Replace Skahaz with Renly (Eddard should have taken his troops), Hizdahr with Cersei (Eddard should have arrested her rather than telling her what was up), and Reznek with Petyr Baelish (although we are not told directly what is going on with Reznek, he does not take part in the council meeting so he was probably arrested or removed from power). Not that the situations were identical...but there is at least some overlap here. Also, the Green Grace might as well have admitted that she was working with the Harpy. She as like put Hizdahr in charge or war...like, I don't know, is she even really hiding that she is kind of on the Yunkai's side? Also, ...all the Great Pyramids should have been taken from the Great Masters. I know i've said that many other places...but it just makes no sense. Why are the old slaver holders just allowed to keep their land..when they lost..and don't even appear to have much or any ability to stop Daenerys's troops from removing them and redistributing at least a portion of their wealth.

Lord Varys - We agree on this, lol. I agree, he isn't an asshole. He is ...a bad person, but not an asshole. People are also kind of applying different standards to Daario than other men. Rarely is Tyrion called an asshole...despite him not really...being that different than Daario. He makes light of violence, enacts violence easily, and uses his charm constantly to defuse negative situations. However, usually when women say they like "bad boys", they mean "charming men". And if you watch romantic comedies...most of the "bad boys" are "charming men". I think Daario falls into that definition of "bad boy". A note : Bad girls also don't have to be assholes either. It's just...there tends to be a higher percentage of assholes per capita amongst those who are charming. I think this is because being charming actually takes a lot of practice to perfect, ...and how has a lot of practice being charming? People who cheat and date around a lot, lol. A note - Dating around does not make you an asshole, but cheating does...so it's right on that line of how honest said charming person is. But also, since someone might misunderstand this : Again, some charming people are not ...dating around /cheating. Some people have a ton of natural charm, or they practice being charming on everyone, not just dates (therefore dating is not a prerequisite for their charm).

I am not Korean, however I've lived here a long time and absorbed some of the culture. I get called old all the time, and I'm significantly younger than 45. Young = 26 and younger. Not young, but also not old = 27-32ish. Anything older than 33 = old, lol. This is particularly when talking about age differences for dating. A 10 year age gap for dating in Korea is practically unheard of. Everyone dates within....5 years maybe for the most part. Like, you never see 40s men with 20s women on dates, it's just not a thing. My friend, who is 33 was chatting to a 23 year old in the club, and while the Western women there were like, "No big deal," the East Asian women there were like, "Why is this old man hitting on a baby?" lol. If people saw a 45 year old talking to an 18 year old, they would probably run up to protect her, lol, and act like the man was a complete creep (which I kind..of agree with...maybe I'm Koreanized)

Agreed. But also I think men often take off their mask in front of other men, much as white people often take off their mask in front of other white people, or straight people take off their mask in front of other straight people, etc, lol. My point being sometimes men very much know how fake certain men are being...because they just tell them, lol. I remember I had one coworker who was always very charming. For the most part he kept the act up around me, because I had many female friends in the office. However, after a "bonding" night out clubbing, he let down the mask. He talked about women more like....well, you can guess (heavy misogyny, disgusting disgusting stuff). But I guarantee he would never do that around women. It made it quite obvious that he was fake as no one that says those kind of things is actually being genuine, basically at all, in front of women. Random note : But since I married a Korean...I am no longer included in the white people slipping off their mask party. I'm assuming everyone didn't stop being racist, and they are just careful now around me, lol. Also, I'm not saying people can't see through the bullshlit...they can and often, but it is easier when..the people just aren't bullshitting in front of you, lol.

It depends. Some of the charming men are generally charming (ie they charm men to), and others charm only women (I would argue they are often only surface level charming...as they aren't truly charming, it's just an act in this case). I certainly knew men that a lot of women like, and I was like...him? Cause that dude was very unpleasant around other men. On the other hand, ...there are men who just hate charming men because they are charming/handsome (but I don't think I fall into that categoryI like charming people, lol), which I think is the case most of the time when talking about Daario (although he is also...a bad person, so who knows?)

So, twice recently I've encountered people who don't understand why Daenerys like Daario. Okay, let me try to explain simply. 1. Daario does nice things for her. He woos her. His wooing is a bit strange at times, but it also is charming in some ways. 2. Daario is handsome and smiles easily and often. 3. Daario doesn't challenge Daenerys's choice to choose. Despite him hitting on her a lot, Daenerys is the one who actually starts the romance. 4. During their dating, Daenerys actually has the power. Daario may be a monstrous man, but he poses literally no threat to Daenerys (from her perspective, and I'd say from our perspective, too). Now some general things that I'm sure other people have attempted to teach you, but I'll still try : 1. Women don't like bad boys because they are assholes (although some of them certainly are). They like bad boys because they can be charming, smile often, and compliment the woman in question in ways that seem genuine and make said woman feel good. 2. Women don't like bad boys just because they are bad. If you are a bad person, that doesn't mean women will like you. It's the charming part (with an edge of danger) that convinces them. Also, a note, a lot of time these bad boys are kind to the women in question (at least at first) while they aren't to others (which can seem flattering. special treatment). 3. This is important. The main reason women like bad boys is because they are attractive (attitude, overall personality, and looks). Final point : I like bad girls, because of this I completely understand when women like bad boys. Now, society does not look as friendly on bad girls as they do bad boys. Rarely, RARELY are romantic comedies made with bad girls and nice boys (Living in Korea, I quite love that a few are though, It's Okay to Not Be Okay is 100% this way, and it is one of my favorite shows of all time because of it). However, I still get it. When a woman has an edge to her, but tells me I look handsome/cute, is a bit controlling right off the bat (but in a way that suggests she likes me), and is of course super charming...why wouldn't I like her? It's easy to be won over by the charm. Now, granted, I want to be clear on this point : I think continuing to date the same kind of guys forever who cheat on you/are abusive to you...because someone silly after a certain point. I learned my lesson after just a few really bad girls, and adjusted/made smarter decisions. Learning to date people who treat you well is also important....but...the attraction itself, I think is natural. Daenerys liking Daario isn't some sign that she is an idiot, or makes horrible decisions. Or whatever else you guys want to say. Anymore than when men like wholly unsuitable women (which...most dudes do, quite honestly...just in different ways For example, liking women who are already in relationships or women who clearly only want to be friends with you...or oh oooo, like Ser Jorah Mormont! Liking women clearly out of your league...and too young for you. Ser Jorah is a great example of what a lot of men do...and Ser Jorah is not 16...he is an old man, still liking unsuitable women. But no one is going on and on about how Ser Jorah liking Daenerys is an example of how bad his judgement is, etc. etc.).

Lol, no he is not. She likes charming men who are also bad boys. Victorian is in no way charming whatsoever. I am beginning to think men really...really can't understand why women like certain men, lol.

Oh that is why I said an occupying force. I was thinking kind of like Korea was to China through much of history. Not officially conquered, but often paying taxes to stop the Chinese from invading. I don't know as much British history (my focus was Asia for my history major) but I always thought Ireland and Korea seemed to kind of have a similar history as often conquered peoples who managed to keep their own identity despite that. To me the Iron Islands seem in a similar weak position, and yet the Westerosi kind of leave them alone UNLESS they are being invaded by them. Why not invade the other direction? There isnt much of value in the Iron Islands...but that's why you don't permanently conquer them, just make them a vassal state or require them to field a navy for you with promise of not invading them. I would think the Westerlands or Riverlands or even the Reach could benefit a lot from that kind of situation. Ireland may never have been fully conquered...but it was invaded by Britain...like many many times. And Ireland itself wasn't launching invasions of Britain with no reprisals....repeatedly, for most of its history (which seems to be the case for the Iron Islands)

Yes! This!!!!! I have thought this often. People thinking Tywin, Walder, Roose, Petyr, etc. are going to come out ahead are forgetting that...the bad guys often do quite well toward the middle of media, before the heroes come back and defeat them. I don't think GRRM is going to do it any differently. I suspect House Frey, House Bolton, House Lannister, and some others to be in ruins by the end of the story. I think the Boltons could be extinguished..the Lannisters could survive (as they have extensive family), but they will be diminished in power, and the Freys will probably have their lands removed from them (someone will take the castle and not return it to them). Petyr Baelish will almost certainly die at Sansa's hand as well. The bad guys...will loose, and thinking they won't is short sighted. One minor nitpick though - We do see both Eddard and Tywin interact with servants. They are part of the "small folk". Tywin is brusk an dismissive, and in fact...all of the Lannisters are. I've seen people argue that Tyrion is kind to the Mountain Clansmen and Bronn...but to Lannister house guards, he gives 0 shits, and to other servants as well. Cersei and Jaime...seem to care almost nothing about servants or guards. Meanwhile, Eddard literally makes a point of switching up who he eats with, he is constnatly caring about his guards/other people working at Winterfell. All of the Stark children feel sadness at the deaths of the servants of the castle, who they treat more like extended family then small folk. As well, Catelyn is polite to the servants under her. Arya is known to befriend...basically everyone. Bran is extremely close with Osha to the point that Osha helps save him. Even Theon, who isn't exactly a Stark feels regret, and pain when thinking about the smallfolk who didn't love him anymore once he took the castle. There is a distinct and abrupt difference between how Lannisters and Starks interact with servants, and I believe that GRRM purposely wrote those differences. Just a note on other noble families - Most seem to have more in common with the Lannisters than the Starks..however the Tyrells do seem to try to get the smallfolks love, and Renly was also pursuing that path. Daenerys seems...a mix. She kind of ...ignores Irri or Jhiqui a lot of the time, but other times talks to them. Missandei she treats as a friend. She was also clearly friends with Ser Jorah despite him being her ....servant kind of. On the other hand, as I've mentioned elsewhere, her dismissal of the Freedmen/Shavepates as potential allies who replace the Great Masters in positions of power is probably due to her overall classism...so it's a mixed bag with her. Just one last note. Eddard Stark is the ONLY lord we see crying/holding his servant (Jory Cassel) after his death. Literally, it's the only case. You might say Jory is noble born...but it is clear that the Cassels are landed knights at best, which again...the other great Lords treat as basically nothing (think how Randyl Tarly treats Ser Hyle Hunt as a comparison). I want to also mention this good treatment of the small folks seems to extend beyond the Starks to other Northern houses and it might suggest an overall cultural difference between Andalosi culture and First Men culture. There is a reason I can name Harwin, Hullen, Mikken, Fat Tom, Old Nan, Hodor, Jory, Rodrickk, Desmond I want to say, (I'm stretching now, most of these guys died in book one), etc; and I have no clue the name of servants of the Lannisters or other nobles we have PoVs of (except Daenerys, I certainly know Irri and Jhiquie and Ereoh and Missandei's names..so Daenerys is a mix).

I guess no, because...they have no mother country. And Dragonstone is now just considered part of Westeros..I guess making them Westerosi (even if they were only from a small corner of it).