Curled Finger

yes

Once upon a time there was a fandom untainted by fan fiction come to life in television form. All they had were questions and their imaginations. Things were better then because this is a complicated tale about many things though it is entitled A Song of Ice and Fire. Now before this thing happened we used to discuss possibilities for The Others, the dragons and pretty much everyone and thing. Plenty of people had the idea Dany might end up on the mad side of the coin and even more people had the idea Jon would have to put a sword in her to fulfill some stupid prophecy. It's in the books and not hard to see. What I don't see is a Great Other or R'hllor or dragons actually traveling north of the Wall. Simply not there anywhere. These dragons will have to wait for Others and their wights to head south then simply obliterate them. The wildcard here being we don't know what other cool tricks could be up the actual Others' sleeves. Thus far we've read about no leader of the Others. We don't know how many there are or anything at all about their organization. Maybe necromancy and weather manipulation is the extent of their power. Seems to me 3 dragons and 3 pissed off dragon riders would be able to handle that. If all it takes is magic swords to smite Others isn't it fairly safe to assume there are only as many Others as there are magic swords? So get 12 magic swords in the hands of 12 heroes and go kill 12 Others, right? Maybe an ancient sword like Dawn does something else. I don't know. I just don't think the dragons or Dany kill the Others. She doesn't have weapons training. Give her a break. Killing off an army of wights is more than enough for her to do.

No disrespect intended here. Maybe they realize how many sharks they actually jumped and this is that ace in the hole to save some of the viewers they may have lost. To have an episode in the bag and not air it is a weird thing. That happened with Sandman, but it was an animated episode, so not really the same and Sandman was in no way in the same shape Yellowjackets is. The 11th Sandman episode really was a bonus. This? I hope this is an apology.

Rebuild Harrenhal Minecraft style

If nothing else he would have kept Little Finger out of Kings Landing.

Judge them as transgressors against the Faith of the Seven and tell them of the great rewards they would have had if they'd chosen the right gods?

But not Whoresbane Umber, right? That's still the coolest name ever. You do mean all this stuff after ADWD, right? Post text? I'm fine with the dagger being what it is in ASOIAF. It's all this other crazy meaning it has in other mediums that drives me nuts.

It wasn't completely awful and that may be the worst part. The potential is clear in this, the talent is powerful the story could be intriguing if they could just figure out what it is. I agree with you that Rings suffered the problem with weak writing despite so many other great things powering it. The problem is that television, particularly episodic television, is a story. Special effects, brilliant characters, inspired music and top tier acting can only carry a story so far without actual story. Whether this is a tale about the human psyche or the supernatural or survival and trauma or crime and punishment or something else it needs to make up its mind and just tell the tale. As you say, the writers are still figuring it out and it shows. Dual timelines can't rely on one timeline being more interesting, both need to grasp interest, particularly when your draw is in the fame of the older actors in the second timeline. Duh. I have yet to read or listen to a single review of this series since the death of Adam Martin who was actually interested in the adults until the introduction of adult Van. Adult Lottie was never interesting. The only adult character I ever saw appreciation for was Misty as she was entertaining while the others were chaotic at best. How do you do that with three of four main characters? The adults relied on the younger versions of their characters for viewers to sympathize with them. There was a disconnect between the Lottie actors that was far less discernable between the other pairings. Yellowjackets has a lot to offer or at least promises to have a lot to offer. I am 2 seasons in now and feel like I have earned more than I have received for the time invested in this thing. Not cheated exactly. Disappointed may be better. Season 2 didn't get any better at telling the story of the survivors in either timeline. I did find out what happened to Shauna's baby in an extraordinarily moving way as well as Javi's mysteries. Saw the devolution of their spirits as winter devoured them. Got rid of all the problems in season 1 and 2. The big problems any way. Still don't understand how Walter fixed everything or why he had to. That was really lame. We shall see what becomes of Taissa's career, family, freedom and insurance premiums. Just hope the showrunners start to understand how important the writing is. I can't get excited about another season of more of the same.

I still don't know if this is great or garbage. Totally confused over the very end. Makes ZERO sense if Coach did this. Been thinking they should kill everyone off and just make it the Misty and Walter show since it is clear these 2 characters are interesting enough to carry a show. Yep. I've watched interviews with the show runners. Apparently there are 3 of them and they are the brains behind all this. They wrote 3 of the episodes in season 1 and the 1st episode of season 2. Seems to me they might want to pay more attention to this thing if they want to maintain their viewers' interest? Weird is great to a certain extent but when a show gets to the point they just pull things out of the air like Castle Rock did it's just not fun to watch. I guess if the people who created the show aren't interested in writing episodes maybe I don't care that much about watching what their minions write either. Didn't hate the ending. Called Nat dying, but missed Kevyn thinking the other cop would be the one. Wasn't put together very well at all. Going to have to sit with this for a bit to see if this taste it left me with gets better.

Sold. I have been dying to try out some Cornwell but not dying to get under another 10+ book series. Right on.

Try the Crime Library. I haven't found a fantasy that comes close. Some historical fiction and some real history is even better, but real honest to goodness horrifying horrible crime is closest to the mark. No, wait, got one...The Witcher is dark and brutal. It's got more of a fairy tale vibe to it, but it is grim with some great heroes and villains and monsters. It really is a good read if you want a story that takes you out of this world.

Welcome and thanks for stealing my suggestion....even if our host doesn't agree!

Agreed. It wouldn't be this story though and that would be bad, too.

Some finale. Glad they didn't leave a lot of questions. Interesting turn of events.

The inappropriate clothing the sexy female characters wear. Arianne's see through clothes she wears in front of her father *GROSS* and Dany's dress that exposes her breast for all the world to see. There is a creep factor here...

Bad relationships aren't simply about abuse. The estrangement and heartbreak Jeor suffers because Jorah is a lovesick moron counts but only because Jeor is such a good and loving dad. I completely understand why Ned never told Jon the truth about his parentage. Still I can imagine Jon's devastation at realizing he will never know the truth when he learns Ned is gone. Can you imagine having to live the rest of your life knowing your dad could have given you the truth before he died but didn't? That would suck forever.

Let's toss Aerys and Rhaegar in the mix, too. While not the worst relationship, it was really messed up.

The really interesting thing about great characters is that they will surprise you. Martin is a great story teller. Even if all the worst theories, fan fiction and show themes find their way into ASOIAF I firmly believe Martin will make them palatable and logical. I would have no problem with Dany ending up hero or villain because Martin has already set the ground work for her end game. That fact will eliminate whatever distaste or dissatisfaction readers have with ending. We will understand much more through Martin's carefully chosen words. Whatever he does with Dany will make sense. The best part of belonging to a community is the sharing of information and ideas. I tried to figure it all out by myself but the story is beyond my complete comprehension on levels. Having many people to discuss with or even just read analysis from often illuminates story components you may miss by yourself. It's not like ASOIAF is an easy story to digest 100% of the time. It's just fascinating to see how divergent people's ideas are and how they reach their conclusions. Dany is a Targaryen and a young disenfranchised one at that. Let's see which side of the coin lands.

Glad to see a new thread. Any ideas about the finale? It was good to see the gang get things out in the open. Never sure when to use spoilers but think this is beyond the stop point. Couldn't distinguish what was in the place Coach Ben went. Looked like a tunnel or cave but not sure. Thought I saw a light hooked up in there? Most curious point in my humble estimation was episode 7 watching present day group dancing to a song that almost killed one of them in the past then celebrating the snow. Someone isn't recalling things correctly. I about spit water when one of them said "I love that song". Lottie seems to have some recall if her talks with her "therapist" are any indication. So weird she would join in the dancing if she remembers any of this at all. Natalie is determined to dig up the past. Enjoyed Jeff's dream and afterward. Jeff is aware of much more than we guessed. I kept wondering if he knew about the baby. Not sure what revelations will mean for Callie. Pretty clear Van was all act when she first returns. But she and Lottie sure seem to want to be part of the present intrigue. But why? Nothing the core 4 have done impacts either Lottie or Van personally. They are being drawn together which makes me think there are no other survivors. Lottie is determined one of them needs to be sacrificed because they all happen to be together. But she is the only one who really seems convinced this is the right thing to do. What did Travis' death pay for or satisfy? Again, I did not clearly see Javi's drawings. Does anyone know what was depicted on the pages other than the tree? Now that we have better understanding of the young crew's descent into madness I wonder what else the writers will pull over the remaining seasons to outdo what they've already done. Yikes.

When I first read the short story published before FAB I had the distinct feeling neither of his sons were fathered by Aegon. As I dig more into Targaryen history it is clear it doesn't matter. Even the Baratheons have some Targ in them, albeit from an impure bastard line. There are a lot of would be kings and queens who never got the chance. In the end every family has its myths and legends. Personalities and features change with the times. We have such a vague picture of who Aegon the Conqueror was. Maybe he was exactly like Aenys and Maegor but we don't see it. Aenys definitely took after his mother while I never thought Visenya was a monster of any sort. I thought the idea of Maegor as a living sort of shadow baby, made of dark magic, blood magic was great. Other than some excellent scenes we just don't know that much about Visenya, either. A few distinctions about the personality and deeds of an historical person isn't the same as reading their journal and knowing their struggles and concerns. There is no way for me to understand the dynamics of an inter sibling incestuous marriage, much less of magical people! I don't know if a lot of them practiced or not. This is their way and I'm guessing it would be like other relationships where they all play games with each other and love each other and can't stand this about the other. Maybe Visenya wasn't down with sharing Aegon with anyone. But she still wanted to burn Dorne to the ground when she learned her sister was dead. Complicated.

So you don't see Cersei forging another sword from Blackfyre? Or Aegon capturing a prize? I admit I do like the idea of Loras with WW despite no real fact to back it up with. It has always been an intriguing idea because we read about and know Loras a bit. Jamie sees his younger self in Loras but still he listens to Brienne about events surrounding Renly's death. Loras has a great deal of promise as a hero in ASOIAF. He's got all the makings. Loras also seems wreckless while being capable of cunning foresight. Tommen adores him. It could work. You betcha Loras would jump at a chance to defend the realm and check out the contender. This gets better the more I think about it. Yes, yes, we have statements that WW in in Kings Landing. That doesn't preclude Loras' return from Dragonstone or a mistaken report on his health. So long as Loras is alive (funny the last of Loras recalls the awful Quentyn Martell horror) there is possibility he could yet get WW. Cersei will have to disperse and dispense with few amenable to her orders. Perhaps our Queen has gained some insight on this game of thrones while her freedoms were compromised? Delicious! I am trying to play with the swords to see if I can come up with anything, but my imagination is not that vivid. I like WW & DS as the odd swords, smaller and probably really effective in the right character's hands. These swords allow for smaller, disabled or simply weaker characters to kick ass. I hate the name Widows Wail. That guy should be in the black cells. Ah, the dagger. No matter how hard I try the lousy thing keeps showing up with prominence. If Viserys really did have the danged thing, it would have to have been a gift to the crown or directly from Valyria. Sweet Rhaenys with a dagger of prophecy. Eye brows raise questioningly. Why not? There are other interesting VS items stranger than the dagger. Let's have a look at the Celtigar's axe or Euron's batman suit. Caggo's arakh. It almost has to play in future tale given Shadoq's appearance in FAB. Loras becomes a powerful ally for Aegon. Wonder if he mentions his sister? Wonder if Aegon is already married? Wonder if Arianne will think he's cute?

Another thing I got to thinking about post script is TPTWP as the Targaryen hero. I imagine this hero requires a magic sword to see the job through to the end. Much as I lean in on Dany being this hero, I don't see her wielding a sword at all. Not where her talents lie. I can see someone like Jorah using a big sword, but a Targaryen sword? Not so much. In that same breath I wonder why Rhaenys had no sword.

Interesting. We know DS went north of the Wall, but that isn't a lot to go on with. I've spent some time considering where and with whom the swords may go until they get where they are needed. Who do you see taking WW south? And why? This bit with Cersei melting swords down is interesting. Can't say I've ever seen that idea before. But, in this theorizing it could make some real sense. Hadn't thought about Aegon collecting swords at all. Another fresh idea! If a nice sized Blackfyre was indeed melted down with the materials from Widows Wail I wonder if there is enough VS to forge a great sword? What would this new sword be named?

I wonder which Ice and which Targaryen sword would have to combine (and how!) to make Lightbringer.

That's GREAT! Never even considered that. Always took it Jon was weak or couldn't physically draw it. Hope Heartsbane gives Tarly the finger!