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  1. Eltharion21

    Who might George be talking about here?

    To me it sounds someone would be made into hamburgers, though that most likely isn't the case since it doesn't require much of a idea. Someone on reddit claimed the legend of execution of privateer in Hamburg could be connected to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Störtebeker If so it might be some Greyjoy : Asha or Victarion maybe.
  2. Eltharion21

    Mel & Selyse

    Probably at some sort of tinder. Joking aside, Mel probably found her following her vision and used her to get near to Stannis who she believes is AA, maybe she asked for audience as many times similar characters do. It is possible Selyse is more prone in being beguiled by mystics than him, due to her character, there might be some parallels to historical cases with Rasputin or Nostradamus . Isn't it said he mostly was at Kings Landing and then visited rarely his wife who was at Dragonstone, before he eloped after Arryn's murder.
  3. Eltharion21

    In defense of Rogar Baratheon

    I find his character and that of Alyssa very well written wonderful additions to the story, showing it is possible to write compelling dramatic human story, without resorting to flash of battles, or cosmic terror. My opinion is that he is a flawed character, but has good intentions at heart, though he may be underestimating young Jaehaerys, Alyssane and Alyssa, though he has a reason when accounting troubled reign of Aenys and Maegor and wars of faith. I absolutely don't see issue in him sending Coryanne Wylde to seduce young Jaehaerys, it was most painless option at the time to try and stop marriage that could had ignited rebellions again. In general House Baratheon was foremost pillar of that dynasty, that would prove to be valuable ally in many occasions despite tense power dynamic, though Targaryens always tended to do slight them, until Mad King and Rhaegar gone too far.
  4. Eltharion21

    Uses of dragons

    In a essence I agree, though from what I saw in F&B that sort of discipline, training and dedication, is mostly dependent of the rider himself or his nature. Connection to the dragons is mysterious, and sometimes feelings of the rider and their character impacts on the dragon or vice versa, Targaryen's as a dinasty seem to mostly be improvising as seen lot in their succession rules or lack of it regarding dragons who live much longer than their riders. One of rarer ancient traditions that seem to be prevalent is incestuous marriage but having children being raised as dragonriders remains mostly left upon themselves, it is possible that similarly to some races of dogs, no dragon can stand two masters.
  5. Eltharion21

    Uses of dragons

    Dareon the Daring used Blue Queen for scouting enemy armies during the Dance, usually Dragons in peace time are being used only as show of might to houses they visit or leisure flight. Size of the dragon even its coloring may effect the role it is best suited for. Though Dragons seem to be mostly prosperously developing when left free on Dragonstone so that alone looks to be enough for them to get larger and stronger (food ,being free to fly and volcanic caves), dragons bound to Dragonpit or Rhaenyra's dragon seem to be impaired when being chained. It is possible that many knowledge about Dragons was lost after the fall of Valyria so Targaryen's had to learn lot of things again from experience and mistakes they made. I am not sure for what size of issue is effective to bring dragon, hunting bandits to me isn't reason enough to bring it to the field, minor rebellions are least reason to bring them in my opinion.
  6. Eltharion21

    An entire royal line wiped out in one battle?

    It is quite possible some of Gardner's survived but lacked power to rise again, and merged with other Houses or were omitted from records by maesters as inconsequential, and lot of Reach houses anyway claims origin from Garth Greendhand. I found interesting part in show Histories and Lore: House Tyrell by Margery Tyrell which insinuates that their stewards had part in downfall of the Gardners ( I doubt it is a canon though).
  7. Eltharion21

    Who was the Biggest Villain of the Dance?

    His actions are open to interpretation he hasn't Pov chapter or that doesn't count in his case unlike You claim it does in Cersei's? His story isn't finished in the novels yet, so judgment of unbiased reader will depend how events unfold. Stannis is certainly rather cold even towards his own family, and his brusque speech, lack of conventional charisma and humor, makes him easily misunderstood and lot of people cant forgive him insulting Eddard, Robb, Gilly, Jon or other more likable characters. Some theorize that Melisandre has seen Cressen attempt on her life (since that is the first thing she learned to see) told Stannis about it to show her powers, and Stannis wanted him retired so he was more harsh toward him, not inviting him several times to counsels to avoid it happening. We already have lot of contradicting information about him in GoT, this may have be another, since he seems rather pragmatic in many choices and capable in showing regret and human emotion. You try to undermine his Statement without going in depth, focusing on every one of those characters Deamon Blackfyre, Brothers Toyne, Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth., and the fact he recognizes both Viserys I and Aegon III as rightful kings, but focus on his character and extensive story lines in Asoiaf, which isn't only time consuming and counterproductive for this thread, but also shows You are willing to disregard everything just to absolve Rhaenyra's crimes. I cant see it, some compare him to Cregan or even Aegon III during the dance , I can't see similarities to neither regardless of their sex, because what I see in essence is one of rare characters who tries to do right thing, though shadowed with his personal issues, perspective and self preservation. We as readers know Stannis is right, lot of High Lords are also aware of the incest but they only do things what is in their interest, that is huge difference between likes of Lysa Arryn, Tyrion, Kevan, Renly and Eddard or Stannis. In such societies, Eddard's investigation and comparison between numerous Roberts bastards and his children by Cersei is evidence enough, and would tip the scale in favor of those claiming their bastardy, that is one of the reasons Cersei ordered their deaths. Jon Arryn's death confirmed his suspicions in Stannis eyes, seeing that Kings Landing is corrupted by Lannisters and other Lords would only respect power in the end, so he decides to prepare for war. Robert wasn't his dear brother, he tried to influence Robert many times but it fell on deaf ears, and to inform him about it through Jon Arryn, because it is little likely he would believe him. Kings Landing and its organisations were deeply rotten, he knew that as part of Small Council and he had little support there, he wouldn't fare much better than Eddard Stark. He didn't sulk, he started preparing for the war he knew it was very likely . Most of Your analogies are inapplicable in those cases. You compare them with modern logic and not with existing quasi medieval feudal family system. Even Kings or Queens need to respect laws they proclaim, or it all falls apart. She ordered execution of Vaemond knowing her children were bastards, so You are wrong on that also. I disagree, King's in Westeros are also men and they should answer to the laws and decisions that better Kings and majority of lords reach, especially regarding succession. I feel same about majority of Your claims, and lack of knowledge about most of topics compared to number of posts here. Corlys was trying to get to the throne from before Great Council, either through Rhaenys or Laenor, he was very ambitious as mentioned several times in the text. His family managed eventually to reach that position through their ward marrying Aegon III after murder of Queen Jaehaera , histories would be in favor of their description as "heroes" of the war. There is no point of marrying daughters of Daemon and Laena Velaryon to sons of Rhaeanyra and Laenor Velaryon and not only once but twice, unless there are some secluded cracks in their alliance. Velaryons switched sides two times later so their relationship was less than stellar. Vaemond told the truth, consequence of that truth is that he is next in the line to inherit that House. He paid with his life for daring to tell truth. Because Rhaenyra nor Daemon ware never a rightful persons they murdered him, that shows how much moral high ground they held among many other things. Viserys was incompetent, during his later years even more so and his decisions caused the dance. She died a traitor's death, similarly to Renly. It was enough for them both a Hand of the King, there is no Dna test in that society, later also Eddard Stark, Cersei instantly confessed when confronted and tried to seduce him instead, Kevan also found out, many other lords quite easily accept it as the fact when told, but their decisions are based on self interest, not on justice.(I am forced to repeat myself when faced with same questions.) Seriously... There are numerous mentions of Jaime being the father it in her chapters later and Jaime's too... People when trying to reach to just conclusion of crimes and situations, when faced with opposition of guilty party which evades their sentence by devious means, have different choices in pursuing the justice: First is try to get solution honorably placing Yourself some legal limitations like Eddard tried, and die. Or by using any arms at your disposal to punish them like Stannis does, neither is perfect way of solving the problem, I personally am partial to more effective one. Even geneticists in our modern age would say chances are few thousand times at least in favor of Rhaenyra's children father being Harwin Strong, as claimed before "Power resides where men believe it resides", if enough doubt they are true born, more power goes to their undoubtedly and existing true born kin. I slander nothing, usually when depicting people in F&B their worse traits become prominent later in life , Rhaenyra's children died too young to evaluate their character, and two excesses mentioned aren't slander but true recordings. Aegon II is hardly the worst Targaryen even in that time period. It isn't very hard to show weakness inherent in other side also, after all Rhaenyra and Daemon are prime example, and also those people never did pretend to sit the throne and prove to be horrible rulers unlike them. I hope You have enough mental capacity to apply what is written of Small Council after the death of Viserys, where in various reasons were put for supporting either side, it isn't very unlikely that some of the Houses joined depending of their situation or interests regarding succession as evident with situations in Vale, Rosby, Stokeworth and having in mind that in Westeros matters of bastardry are important so much that Civil Wars are started for. Corlys and Rhaenys decided they would mitigate it through marriage with their grand daughters, and they probably came to terms that Laenor would ever have children. He didn't have dragons, Stannis was truly a Underdog, Rhaenyra wasn't. Even when besieging the King's Landing with around 20.000 men and 200 ships he was against the garrison of 8000 men, 57 ships, city walls and Wildfire along with relief force of 50.000- 100.000 men breathing down his neck. You talk about love in world where arranged marriages are rule and that by their siblings mostly, any true love is doubtful to happen in those situations, they are mostly alliances of power. Her children with Viserys were true born and acknowledged dragonriders and had claim to the throne. Jaehaerys seems to have been truly great man, worthy of remembrance and respect, they might have bonded as he mistook her for his daughter and she recalled him in her old age.I found that interesting and somewhat touching, Viserys disposition toward everyone seems to be overly tolerating, and sweeping most of the issues under the rug, she also suffered her son losing an eye unresolved, he was far from loving husband, if he didn't take her well being and those of their children in account. Thankfully i don't see message You are seeing. King is dead and succession crisis was evident while he was alive, and he did little to stop it. That is why institutions, laws, and traditions exist when common sense and ego's of offspring are preventing peaceful transition. There isn't much that character could add, and over seasoning with another "surprising" Targaryen along with theories about Melisandre, Quaithe, Mance and others would turn Asoiaf in parody. Bloodraven is more than enough. I am talking about the letter he sent to Rhaenyra which is written evidence of his involvement, along with other events that sometimes don't have written records but show pattern of murderous scheming behavior nonetheless. Killing innocents as payment for crimes of their family is never justified, and that claim makes me doubt everything else You claim or adhering to any sort of "moral high ground" . There are two separate occasions of him supporting the Betrayers, along with Mushroom and Munkun collaborating on their reaction when being rejected. The glove fits in this case. There are many things under doubt in information that Gyldane compiles, those aren't put in to doubt either by author or by claims of other sources in the story, to me it seems you are grasping for straws. Please put quotes or links to those argumented claims if You want to be taken seriously. In that moment She was truly broken Woman, with most of her family killed, unlike Rhaenyra I felt sorry for her and she reminded me of Lady Stoneheart. Blood would be tortured regardless of her decision, You forget the King was present in the capital. Regarding bathing in blood of his family, that is unproven rumor, if anything she should be asking to bathe in blood of Rhaenyra's and Daemon's children which she didn't though She was in position later. I disagree and I believe author of the story does too, judging by this lovely passage also King was having health issues at the time of his placing in position, so he might have been chosen by Ser Otto : Then She maybe shouldn't taken the capital but tried either capturing economically sustainable towns, valuable resources, taking the loans... Actual truth is that she was vastly incompetent for the position she desired. Alicent wasn't in deciding position during the much of the war or previously, she was mostly counseling, making most impactful decisions was mostly on Viserys , later on Aegon II and Rhaenyra. It is relevant when King decides to gather all the lords in the land to decide about choosing his heir, when brother of King usurps the throne kills his brother son and marries his daughter, even Jaehaerys succession is based on power of political alliance, going over daughter of Aenys and her daughters. My statement is directed mostly on your philosophy that Kings should decide everything, and not be bound by any laws in society, which I disagree with. Even in Westeros power of King isn't absolute, that analogy could clearly be seen in the Iron Throne its huge size, and barbs that no king is meant to sit comfortably. High Lords are closest to power of King if their word or decisions of previous rulers aren't recognized it creates huge instability and ignoring them shows how badly person would rule. I disagree intrigue, assassination and creation of alliances ware happening much before real war has begun. Greens were on offensive during the most of the conflict in their opponents territory so it is logical they would be considered by aggressors by population there, when in fact they were fighting under authority of Aegon II. Blacks as winners of conflict are certainly portrayed in better light by contemporary sources. Claiming one side had moral high ground is dubious at best, two wrongs don't make a right.
  8. Eltharion21

    Who was the Biggest Villain of the Dance?

    I will when You stop replying to my posts, to be honest most of the time You reply to my comments, and We have debate around same subjects and it requires too much time to answer, it would be also bad for the forum that only Your point of view is recorded for posterity. Even his opponents and George himself call him "truly just man". We as readers are certain that Cersei's children are bastards made by incest, she even blatantly confesses it to Hand of the KIng in his pov chapter. If you plan to make thread about Your issues with Stannis please make different thread, since this is with his comparison by Rhaenyra, in slandering him You damage she who You would compare him to. Though he really seems adaptable to conditions, when people consider him unbending. There was a lovely blog that wrote about him: Iron Bends Cersei might have effected, reduced efforts in helping him recover after Lysa and Baelish poisoned him, Stannis certainly isn't all knowing and it is a honest mistake, since she caused Roberts death, that also wouldn't be beneath her. "During his interrogation by Tyrion Lannister, Grand Maester Pycelle reveals that Colemon had been having success in purging the poison which had been killing Jon Arryn, and that he had sent Colemon away to allow Lord Jon's condition to worsen." There is thing as respecting laws and conventions, person who pretends to be monarch is required to maintain them, when Highest Lords's aren't treated with due process, what is to say about treatment of common people. Rhaenyra's treason was also obvious to the Greens so she did ultimately reaped what she sowed. So the laws should be made of pudding excluding some individuals but respecting right of others, heh? Corlys was hypocrite and extremely ambitious man, similarly to Otto Hightower. Corlys followed Rhaenyra until tally on his own house was too great, he also didn't want that her sons inherit House Velaryon but there needed to be marriage alliance between children of his daughter and Rhaenyra's two eldest boys, which may have also hampered alliance options possibilities with other houses ,notably House Baratheon which may have prevented the war before it even started. Vaemond wasn't a rebel he just claimed the truth, that he should inherit since those weren't children of Laenor Velaryon. King had said that those who call their children Strongs they their tongues would be torn out by hot pincers, not that they would be executed and fed to dragon. That same King had been indecisive and inconsistent as it gets. Aegon II is recognized as true king by all of Westeros after the war, and Rhaenyra will never be considered as such, he also claimed Dragonstone his ancestral seat by right of conquest, there wasn't even talk of condemning him after Blacks won since he was acknowledged as king before he died. Stannis and Jon Arryn discovered it previously and later Ned, other Lords even when being confronted with truth like Kevan, Tyrion, Lysa even Renly and Tyrells will of course follow their own interests to detriment of the realm, not the least of the mockingbirds or small arthropods just begging to be squashed. Revelation exists also for the readers, who unquestionably know the truth, on the other hand if people want to role-play, rather clumsily as conniving mummer good for them. No, they problem with their parentage evident in their appearance, though to be frank they died to Young so that any of their bad characteristic becomes too evident, though Lucerys did poke out of his cousin with a dagger at five years, and other allegedly broke his marriage vows so they weren't exactly saints. Having bastards by first female inheritor in the Targaryen dynasty, by minor house even and that is the same house of Sir Lucamore Strong - The Lusty which was huge scandal, know to all at the time is material for many civil unrests in the close future. You are aware that events described happen 170 years before War of the Five Kings, with various biases of those writing even, social development and differentiation of norms can be also taken in the account, it is possible that at the time Westeros was somewhat more conservative. Lords who joined the Greens and their lesser banner-men made decision as did the Blacks following their own best interests first. You probably have wiki link somewhere I substantiate enough of my claims with quotes unlike some. " Power resides where men believe it resides." so each made their own decision who they support taking various elements into account. I don't agree Stannis was Underdog in same sense as Rhaenyra. In the start of war he has Royal Navy and Lyseni, 5000 Men, and Red Woman, Rhaenyra has much more and support of other Kingdoms before war escalates, She is in much better position and also there is less factions than in his time. What evidence do You have about that, please give quotes not Your own observations, personal impressions or just conjecture. Viserys married her, and had four trueborn children with her, nobody put gun to his head. Later she fought for their rights maybe using some dubious actions, but also from justified fear from Daemon and Rhaenyra's vengeful character, That makes her hardly a villain compared to many of characters in the Dance. Alicent was daughter of Otto Hightower though he was four times Hand of the King and he was Uncle to Lord of Hightower, I am aware that her status wouldn't put her in consideration in marrying the King, and she probably premeditatedly was trying to seduce Viserys, while his first wife even was alive, but when he married her and made trueborn children with her, while immoral it certainly isn't a crime and Rhaenyra isn't one to talk about morals, Alicent's children by birth got rights as children of the King. She also had to make much more social climbing than Cersei, who was instantly chosen as best and maybe only choice for Robert. At least we agree on dislike of Daemon, unlike many who laud him as heroes , and think he survived like Tupac... There isn't any proof of Green crime but people like you pile to them , behaving like Black's trash doesn't stink. Daemon certainly ordered Son for a son there is written evidence for that, his first wife untimely death, he certainly had things to gain from those deaths, there are patterns in his behavior worming his way to top of Targaryen chain using scheming, murder, also corrupting various institutions like he did with Goldcloaks. I am not familiar with post that Ran made (great movie btw) but if that is Elio isn't his favorite character from the Dance Daemon himself and he is only one who imagined Jason Isaacs with Harry Potter wig, so he might have bit of biased. As a quasi historical text, there are lot of various sources but there are also recurring patterns , to make us decide what truth we can from events. We have two separate occasions it is claimed Daemon sided with Dragonseeds first time regarding Rosby and Stokeworth inheritance and later Lannister and Baratheon seats of power, other sources that collaborate those events and he also was surrounded with many of lower class persons of questionable character and made lot of impulsive foolish decisions, so it is absolutely makes sense that he would ask for it. Alicent hasn't tortured many other people, including Tyland or asked Addam the LOYAL to be tortured, imprisoning and beating his father, so they don't share same amount of guilt. It matters how rulers reach the decision, how they execute them, and if they choose to forgive and not forget. In the end she was just a delightful bite for Sunfyre : “These violent delights have violent ends.” I disagree, he was truly great man and truthfully worked for benefit of the realm, unlike scum like Varys or Littlefinger. Those people were brought up to that state with misrule of Targaryens, Alicent prevented them to leave by barring the gates, but Rhaenyra drove them to desperation and vengefulness, not governing properly city she conquered, from Realm's delight in only six months she became so reviled, it is quite an achievement. She is chief commanding of her faction, and pretending to be the Queen of Westeros it is her responsibility and blood is on her hands. This show scene would capture my response to Your claim. Viserys was just a man, with questionable virtues , whenever factionalism existed and great opposing alliances on the court, huge number of dragons, toleration of schemes and insubordination, lack of policy of their inheritance and use in their Kingdom, civil conflict was just waiting to happen. Viserys was in his later years hugely incompetent, insinuated by cutting himself on the Throne when he asked Velaryon's to loose their tongues for claiming his grandchildren to be bastards. Viserys was extremely incompetent as I state in paragraph above, he empowered both sides, with Small Council and Kingsguard, and power in Capitol being held by Green side, while Rhaenyra or her representative at least wasn't present at all. Whole F&B point is that when power is centered in one man, it can cause huge troubles depending of his character, so was during the Dance. By Your own claim people don't need any sort of critical thinking, authority figures would all decide it for them, and that is "a brave new world" I want no part of. Causes for starting the War were even more trivial than during the WotFK, even more so when they are basically closely related family, both sides committed atrocities, though Greens were more on offensive and they were operating in their opponents territory, sack of edit: Tumbleton, riots and devastation and Kings Landing are largely caused by Black supporters and decisions also, Velaryons holdings were sacked by Triarchy, who were waging war against them on Stepstones, you disregard crimes of Greyjoy's also. There is of course historical bias that MUST be in favor of Black sides, as they are Pyrrhic winners of the conflict, and future Kings are from the Black sides, and higher questions of justification of war, beneficial rule, relationship between lords and their subjects, murder of innocents, and many more that transcend trivial questions of who has more right to sit the throne or who struck first blow. Most people here seem to be missing the point of Civil War in general.
  9. Eltharion21

    Who was the Biggest Villain of the Dance?

    Both sides had their share of villains, people talk mostly of the Green side here in them only who can be considered as truly one is Aemond. Most prominent Black villains are Daemon and Rhaenyra, with one ordering one of most loathsome crimes in the series, scheming his way to the top of Targaryen inheritance by whatever means, corrupting any sort of organisation or institution, wishing to place the Betrayers instead of Lannisters and Baratheons possibly desolving any semblance of order in the Kingdom. Rhaenyra is more pathetic sort of villain, though one none the less. She ordered people to death and asked for torture of children even before any conflict started which puts in doubt her own tragedies hardening her heart. Noble men like Tyland, and even her own allies. Most vile period of history so far in the King's Landing happened during her governance of the city, she never expressed regret for the deaths of children of her Targaryen family. Citizens of Kings Landing likened her rule to that of Maegor and other numerous examples. Most of all her being the rightful heir doesn't excuse even a small part of her crimes, and even that was disputed rightly so by decisions of Great Council, traditions and laws of succession, having bastard children and trying to place them as heirs to the throne. Her own example of being chosen as heir for the explicit reason that Deamon wouldn't rule which was negated by them marrying later which would be to detriment of the realm, and clearly shown incompetence during her short reign.
  10. Eltharion21

    Who was the Biggest Villain of the Dance?

    I am rather loath to keep replying to someone who even confronted with written evidence just skimms over those as trivial details and holds on his own head canon. Stannis isn't obsessed with Rhaenyra or other named traitors, but he seems to be by what is just in his own mind. He is certain to have more grudge toward Lannisters than ancient feud, even then Baratheon's were more close to Black branch with Rhaenys. There are absolutely no mentions of any sort of trials for captured Greens during very short Rhaenyra's reign, and also Lord Corlys since he was ill it is unlikely that he had anything to do with execution of his cousin and feeding his corpse to dragon. Rhaenyra wasn't either sitting the Iron Throne at the time, she even sold her crown to buy for escape, Aegon did capture Dragonstone ancient seat of the house, so he was certainly lord of that at the time. I don't understand even half of the expression you use , to me it looks like you are relying too much on shade of evening purple juices. Cersei became Queen with 18 years and is Robert's queen for 14 years until his death and children were presumed heirs to the Iron Throne uncontested until the revelation made by members of Small Council. She named her firstborn her heir when she crowned herself for Queen on Dragonstone, it doesn't get anymore specific that get, I don't tend to even consider Your absurd argument that it is irrelevant until she conquered the throne, because of many of her actions in enforcing them as her heirs. Lot of lords would disagree, and second branch who had dragons too. Rhaenyra was supposed Underdog for a few months if so, that is until even real battles started, that isn't also counting corrupted Goldcloaks and criminal elements of King's Landing that were also on Black sides. Catlyn has pov chapter , we don't have such for any of the F&B characters. It is You who are comparing Alicent and Cersei not me.
  11. Eltharion21

    Who was the Biggest Villain of the Dance?

    In his quote Stannis talks about many different traitors, and he one of the rare characters that shows deliberation and waging of actions by other characters naming Jaime Lannister both Kingslayer and Ser in the same letter. Rhaenyra was executed promptly as traitor, similarly the way she treated Sir Vaemond or Lord Otto Hightower executing them without trial. Aegon II was recognized as king by roughly half of Westeros at the time. Cersei and Rhaenyra were both spoiled princesses, being daughter of Tywin Lannister one of the most powerful lords in the land doesn't require much social climbing, she also became the Queen of Westeros in her youth and her sons are supposed heirs if she made them with Robert. Cersei supposes to rule as regent to whole of Westeros, debt of Iron Throne is tied to those who pretend to rule it. For someone who post's here quite often, it would do you to have some rereads: Rhaenyra's heir was Jacaerys her firstborn child, when she crowned herself queen she named him prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne. Parentage of children is very relevant, also they were bastards and her own family considered them such with enough to have it tip scale and some joining their cause and gathering enough support to start Civil War over it. By her words if that was true, she would be committing high treason, only problem is that Westeros doesn't have parentage test, but judging from what Martin is written so far that is one of more certain things. Have you read F&B or you still stick to older material and presumptions about that period since Your interest is recorded from the first mentions of material? Rhaenyra has strongest navy ( Velaryon's of Stannis time aren't same as then), greatest number of Dragons, and gains support of Riverlands, Vale, North, Iron Islands, and lot of Reach houses join. While Greens have Westerlands, Crownlands (though they often swap sides), Hightower and some of Reach, Triarchy joins later but looses while Velaryon still have 2/3rd's of their navy, Stormlands don't join in until it is too late and even then with mediocre number of soldiers. Numbers of men dead in various battles are also off, since Blacks loose much more, but Greens give up without that much losses. I believe it is to fact that Dance is written in after the Asoiaf has been set up , so those House would still need to be powerful. Alicent is from one of the wealthiest houses in the realm, her being as counselor and woman stricken with grief and wanting vengeance, but loving her family reminds me of fate of Catelyn and Stoneheart, though much more ambitious and vain person, that is my opinion, it may not be the fact, but Cersei and Rhaenyra are certainly more similar.
  12. Eltharion21

    Who was the Biggest Villain of the Dance?

    Rhaenyra is considered traitor by some rightly so, even though her side eventually won and she would have bias of historians of the winning side, who excuse many of her crimes and failings on account of having a "mother's heart" . While Stannis is alive war isn't over, and he already is trying to fight the real fight against Deamons made of Ice and cold, which is currently more than any of leaders of Westeros were doing. Though it is likely he will die, sometimes dying for what people believe is right is noble thing to do. Rhaenyra had three bastard children who she tried to place in the throne one of whom is named Jofferey , ordered cruel executions starting from Ser Vaemond Velaryon, she also had horrible Masters of Whisperers like Mysaria who can be likened to Qyburn, both were considered very beautiful in their youth but later in life that beauty is waning with Rhaenyra being stout after childbirth's and Cersei's description in the walk of shame and also thinking that washerwoman are shrinking her dresses, both are also seemingly prone to paranoia, both likely had relationship with Kingsguard, she also had lot of incompetent policies including financial issues that also plaque Cersei, both are compared with Maegor , etc. I also doubt claim that Rhaenyra's side was underdog since half of her allies didn't even arrive to conflict and the War was almost won. Alicent to me is more similar to more ambitious Catelyn.
  13. Eltharion21

    Who was the Biggest Villain of the Dance?

    Stannis doesn't have much in common with Rhaenyra other that they are located in Dragonstone, even he considers her a traitor, she is closer to Cersei in character and action. "Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth... traitors have always paid with their lives... even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. —Stannis Baratheon, to Davos Seaworth"
  14. Eltharion21

    Who got the most screwed over

    Lannisters got whitewashed mostly in comparison to their characters in books, only exception is Jaime who gets to kill his cousin trying to escape , so far he isn't a kin-slayer in the novel, there is also that scene with Cersei on Joffrey's funeral and of-course his claim that he never cared about innocents. Dorne characters got truly ruined , though so far they haven't been very impactful in the novels , of course I look forward to reading about them. I am partial to the way they ruined Stannis and also given to Jon Snow lot of his storyline. I even choose my avatar in part for their depiction that is akin to Lannister propaganda from the novels: My opinion is that they haven't understood essence of many characters and how they changed and developed, in the end lot of them either reverted to starting point or are blatantly projection of their bias.
  15. Eltharion21

    Ask D&D

    First of all, How Dare You. Second: When you acknowledged fact that pilot episode had serious issues in script, why didn't you hire additional help in later seasons when you decided to omit, merge or change lot of story-lines from Feast and Dance, especially after Season 4? Example of the issues was often posted on various entertainment sites: