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Eltharion21

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  1. In this thread you often repeat that loyalty of Black lords, especially Riverlanders and their supposed outstanding command skills would be enough to remedy exclusion of Dragons. Which clearly isn't enough. I always try to support my arguments with quotes, trying to not repeat myself, check grammar and even try to understand your arguments, foolhardy as it gets. Text is explicitly showing me right , without dragons Blacks couldn't take Harrenhall so easily that was held by Greens and use it for rallying, which would delay their gathering and sway some lords to other side. Lords had much more to loose than smallfolk, they would delay their actions when faced with uncertain outcome, as often in history. Dragons are main advantage of black side - therefore it would create ripple effect on everything especially on support of Lords, especially in Riverlands- which was chosen for first battlefield to converge and rally Rhaenyra's allies in one location. They were certainly influenced by those victories, if not they would declare their support sooner. Hightowers would continue, if Otto Hightower still lived which he would. Since the battle happens before Fishfeed, Butcher's Ball or Kingsroad - their allies would still be in good shape - Lannisters, Aegon's Crownlands, Baratheons and there would be will to wage war still. Your argument is just repeating and falsely corelating their reaction in the end of Dance and devastation , there is no reason that sensible person would believe their choice would be the same after one early defeat. Aemond subdued diddly-squat, It was Ser Criston Cole's plan and leadership that got them to bounce back after initial defeats. Aemond was fierce, dangerous, yet both his plan for Harrenhall and burning of Riverlands while leaving his force were huge failures. Greens had only 2 dragons at disposal near King's Landing - soon only Vhagar remained, who was real threat and it could be only in one place at time. Blacks could had far better utilized their advantage in spreading their dragon forces. It is huge difference in opponent blundering on his own and guiding him to that fate. You would never say that if you were familiar with deeds of great military minds like : Hannibal Barca, Flavius Belisarius, Robert E. Lee ( Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson), Napoleon, Frederick the Great and others. There were idiots on both side of war, on Black side those were Daemon and Rhaenyra - in their political decisions, which is more than enough for their side to loose if not for Corlys Velaryon. Only fallacy besides your spelling is your logic. Daemon influenced the fall of Targaryen dynasty through scheming since the time of Great Council 101 Ac until his own death - ordering death of Viserys grandchild for vengeance, starting war with Triarchy and abandoning it, giving Mysaria, betrayers and corrupt Goldcloaks positions of power, seducing Rhaenyra at young age and later marrying her without king's consent, up to his own timely death causing the death of two great dragons . Aegon I conquered seven kingdoms and forged them in one, he couldn't have been responsible for things far after his death. Even his son Aenys had a chance to prove himself as a king, before Visenya and Maegor replaced him. No, Orys Baratheon married Aggrilac Durrandon's daughter, he took sigil, words and it was continuation of Storm Kings line by other name. Targaryens didn't slaughter them all as was Daemon's plan during the Dance. Betrayers wanted it all. No sane commander would face dragons directly without means to deal with them. That is why Dance was characterized by smaller numbers of armies. If Stannis swore to Greens, he wouldn't have choice but to give them support, unlike Borros who had idea to join when dust settled and was far overconfident he could win war alone - charging uphill to defended positions. Stormland forces would be of aid to their allies Lannisters and in King's Landing earlier. Stannis was outnumbered during Storm's End siege, Blackwater - combined forces of Lannisters with Tyrell relief force outnumbered his own, in incoming Battle of Ice he has fewer men than Bolton/Frey alliance. Aegon II was dead when their status is quoted, they lost the will to fight, only his young daughter was alive at the time. Accepting peace wasn't in Aegon, Daemon, Aemond and also Rhaenyra's character, thank god for Corlys wisdom, pardons and peace deal that made Aegon III his uncle's heir. This thread is "What would happen if you removed dragons from The Dance of the Dragons? " I consider it answered for my part. Greens would find it more advantageous as explicitly stated. Since you wish to have some fanboyish argument "How my side is morally superior, smarter, better smelling, or whatever" feel free to make different thread, otherwise stick to the topic.
  2. Thing is that victories and success , tend to sway calculating people- You try to describe them as staunchly loyal and one track minded - their primary concern is usually survival. Quoting the parts of text - fall of Harrenhal impacted first rallying of knights, men at arms, peasants, Riverlords started joining after feeling where the wind is blowing, even so Tullys remained neutral still. Inaction of Ser Otto Hightower was possibly seen as weakness and many Houses swayed to Black side because of initial victories - given by Daemon on Caraxes. If Lord of Trident were weary because of dragons as Yourself claim - then Blacks should had more influence on them as they had much more of them. So Greens certainly benefit more if there are dragons out of the picture. At Honeywine Greens might be defeated, though it is question if all of those Houses ( Beesbury, Tarly, Rowan, Caswell and Costayne) would join instantly as there would be no fast Black victories in Riverlands to motivate them. Even if loosing that army they could muster more, even after the fall of King's Landing this is said of their power: If Harenhall isn't taken by the Daemon with help of Caraxes - then Lannister might not even launch campaign toward that city and foolhardy plan of Aemond to take it wouldn't necessarily happen. Directions of maneuvers would change, focusing on mainland houses - with main threat being House Velaryon naval holdings - for which they had to use aid of Triarchy. Their accomplishments are due to failure of other men , not their own exceeding worth. It is no matter of preference, it is a fact. They are also celebrated more since they are victors , as things usually are in histories. No, since it happened many generations after, something he couldn't had prevented. He created great basis for a united kingdom, made new capital that was turning to the east in connection to the Essos, people still behold Iron Throne he made as a symbol of their realm, royal processions are practiced still, accepting most popular religion to appease population, Lords Paramount that he gave chance to bend the knee still give some structure to the realm stability unlike many wars before the conquest, right of first night... Daemon is mostly responsible - of the people in that period for the fall of dynasty - through his machinations, scheming and bad decisions, his one plan led to death of Aemond, himself, Vhagar and Caraxes, antagonizing Triarchy and abandoning Stepstones without definitive defeat of his adversary - caused them to return and surprise Velaryons with huge losses, list could go on. Daemon's idea was to destroy Houses Lannister and Baratheon, give their realms to two betrayers, which would only dissolve entirety of feudal structure, disintegrate realm - turning it to Iron Isles with dragonlords and give more support to betrayers who would turn unfaithful as soon as they could. That was worst idea ever in history of bad ideas by Westeros lordlings. No, written evidence does. I don't understand what you mean and especially word "interesar"? Stannis fought often in battles with weaker force, there is bravery and stupidity, he had to be dragged off the battlefield of Blackwater- man is no craven , but cautious and realistic. Hightowers had manpower, funds to continue waging war - they lacked only will - as quoted before. If Aegon II accepted to send pardons to lord who bent the knee, it would reduce number of his enemies , and North isn't as secure in alliance with Southerners- so they cold exploit that discord, to deal with them individually. North brought 20.000- 8.000 men depending of estimate - due to the Cregan Stark's "diplomatic" personality it is likely he would irritate his allies and might had even fight against them if war lasted bit longer - which it certainly would without dragons.
  3. Loyalty is fine but not enough for winning a war. Most Lords change theirs as power of rulers waxes and wanes. Riverlands also was divided initially - when Brackens and Harrenhall were taken that turned tables, and Houses started joining for Blacks. Tullys' were actually neutral since aging Lord Grover supported Aegon II as a man of principles, Vances of Ataranta also were for Aegon II. King's Landing would be difficult to besiege in proximity of Storm's End and if they no longer hold the naval supremacy- without Dragons. The Gullet never would have been defeat for the Greens- Triarchy lost 2/3rds of and Velaryons 1/3rd of their fleet and that is with the aid of 5 dragons, Triarchy also managed to sack Driftmark. I don't doubt Jacaerys would find some equally daft way to get himself killed later. Dragons - though significant, were hardly main power of the Greens whose main power is House Hightower - the real Kingmaker in the story. At the beginning of conflict Martin claims that forces of Black council are inferior to Hightowers : "All their hosts combined could not match the power the Hightowers alone could field." Greens would had used funds for mercenaries, their losses weren't as significant as those of Blacks, main casualties were death of Important commanders, without dragons as weapons of mass destruction- war would had stalled for longer time. Funds were taken to Casterly Rock, Braavos and Oldtown for safekeeping and they could had finance war for longer then Blacks especially North with issue of Winter. Dustin and old Wolves who came to die, during Fishfeed he got 2/3rd's of his men killed. Total casualties came to around 2000 for each side. Butcher's Ball wasn't a battle. He managed to kill Lord Ormund Hightower and Ser Bryndon Hightower - but died to the wounds latter had given him- great warrior - not so much of a commander. I wont deem myself to consider either bunch of Muppets who came to war late, Crash Bandicoot which seems like he belongs in fairy tale or Pate the trampled as anything meaningful. Commanders and men present during the Fishfeed, Butcher's Ball and First Tumbleton aren't the same as those in Second Tumbleton and Kingsroad and last battle is mostly success due to failure of Lord Borros Baratheon. If you don't know that you are blinder than Aemond One-Eye. Act of murdering Viserys grandchild alone moved chain of events that costed Rhaenyra her crown, life along with her son and all dragons in her care. Betrayers wouldn't settle for anything less than becoming Kings themselves fault wasn't in their rewards but their character: "For all these reasons, Lord Hammer (as he now styled himself) began to dream of crowns. “Why be a lord when you can be a king?” he told the men who began to gather round him. And talk was heard in camp of a prophecy of ancient days that said, “When the hammer shall fall upon the dragon, a new king shall arise, and none shall stand before him.” Whence came these words remains a mystery (not from Hammer himself, who could neither read nor write), but within a few days every man at Tumbleton had heard them." Repeating things doesn't make them true. Stannis would had given meaningful and timely support to the Greens, unlike Borros who waited for coast to clear. Hindsight isn't needed. Stannis knows his history and strength of each House in Westeros. Battle of Kingsroad who was very similar to The Last Storm- charging uphill with knights in muddy terrain on a defensive position, even more leaving flanks open and allowing Crownland turn cloaks to attack from rear - when they should had been used as arrow fodder. If they had won - they would prepare King's Landing for Northern siege- House Hightower still had strength and mercenaries could had been recruited. North if defeated wouldn't manage to return for years because of Winter.
  4. It doesn't work if children look Targaryen, since then they could have said "they look like mother" and "seed is strong" or something. Thing with first three children of Rhaenyra is that they don't look at all like their supposed father or mother. One thing is the viewers to have insight in true parentage , other is that Aemond calling his nephews Strongs, reasons for animosity and Lords supporting the Aegon , Ser Vaemond Velaryon's claim etc. Whole story change seems unnecessary and creates domino effect, which would create more issues along the way.
  5. Without dragons there was no room for pivotal maneuvers of Blacks - mostly Daemon taking Harrenhall as rallying point in Riverlands , converging of Dragons in undefended King's Landing and burning of the Triarchy Fleet - which would decimate Velaryons. Blacks main advantage were dragon as was explicitly stated in the novel. Greens still had all of the Royal treasury - one of the main reasons Rhaenyra lost the city and her life - “The sinews of war, a limitless supply of money.” Neither side had very capable commanders, Daemon had most experience in war and success in his plans, yet he made errors in using corruption : blood & cheese, mysaria, goldcloaks, betrayers which all had detrimental effect to Black cause. Ser Criston Cole had turned around situation that was going badly by giving some victories to his side - yet was destroyed when Aemond abandoned his army to go on a futile burnination campaign. It goes like that with many of notable commanders. Far lesser butterfly effect than exemption of the dragons could change the outcome of war. Greens even could have won if Borros won battle of Kingsroad or if you replace him with more capable commander like Stannis.
  6. I believe Green's would benefit most without dragons as they had four of fighting size Vhagar, Sunfyre, Tessarion and Dreamfyre/Helaena which wasn't at all utilized during the war. Even with two betrayers turning against the Blacks in Tumbleton, they quickly impacted disintegration of Reach army and had to be dealt themselves as a threat, so they weren't significant or long term gain for Greens. Opening moves were crucial and utilization of Dragons was important in taking of Harrenhall or King's Landing so lack of them would impact the war in Green's favor including the need for diplomacy with Rhaenyra's children.
  7. Here is the quote from the artist about how Vhagar's color was described to her.
  8. I know this question is often repeated, but couldn't find more recent thread so I post this here. Great image of Aemond and Vhagar vs Lucerys and Arrax by Sam Hogg from Asoiaf Calendar was posted on reddit/Imaginary Westeros. https://old.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/comments/kxwhwt/vhagar_and_arrax_by_sam_hogg_from_the_2021_asoiaf/ To cut long story short, poster asked artist on Twitter about it and here is the reply - so it seems Vhagar looked similar to Rheagal.
  9. https://variety.com/2021/film/columns/sound-of-metal-star-olivia-cooke-talks-scream-singing-and-her-game-of-thrones-prequel-audition-1234883135/ There is small bit of audition information by Olivia Cooke, supposedly she was offered the role in October, two months before it was announced.
  10. Honestly I would wait for some other confirmation, it is odd that he is credited for only 1 episode, since Corlys is present as a player from time of Great Council to the End of the Dance. Imdb isn't so reliable, I can say from personal experience. One time in Imdb for Warhammer II Total War a fan of edgy character similar to Daemon or Elric of Melniboné - Malus Darkblade, wanted to troll the fandom, so he changed credit for actor Mark Noble - who already voiced one of the main characters named Tyrion- likely named after Tolkien's Tirion . I sent request to Imdb editors for them to change actor's credit in game, since Malus wasn't released in game yet and major voice role would better represent his involvement in game, which they eventually changed. https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/225010/next-de-ll-leaked/p2 https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/225147/malus-got-cancelled/p1
  11. First Stannis isn't even present when any of that happens, since he leaves Wildling prisoners under care of Lord Commander of Night Watch and leaves to curry support from Mountain Clans. Second their courtship seems exactly like standard Wilding practice , other that they are seemingly unworthy through failure or lack of many good qualities in Axell's case.
  12. So they behaved in accord with typical Wildling courtship? When in his whole Northern campaign in dealing with Northern hospitality, Ironborn, snow , Boltons and Frey, forming logistics for defense from the Others he would have time to deal with minor issues, which Lord Commander of Night's Watch or even Val herself could had taken care of?
  13. "Prophecies" are vague and often deliberately ambiguous. Just take look in Nostradamus work, examples in antiquity with Oracles of Dodona answer to the Greek general going to war about outcome: With Cersei's Pov added they might be literary tool to add new layers in her motivation and confrontation with people she considers a threat, and whose self fulfilling aspect is kind of reminiscent of Macbeth and three witches We can't be sure if all of her children will die as Myrcella might survive and wear shroud to cover scar on her face. Though personally think some sort of strangulation is the death Martin has planned for Cersei:
  14. What is alternative, separate Kingdoms ? You can see how much devastation and wars happened before the Aegon's Conquest if you look history of the realm in The World of Ice and Fire. Maybe better alternative is building on institution of Great Council and creating deterrents for power of the King/Queen and his potential misbehavior, yet technology or society would need to advance a bit. Just look our human society, only 75 years ago was WW II with 70-85 million casualties. League of Nations was fruitless as a tool for peace, nowadays mostly Nuclear deterrent is holding mass conventional wars in check.
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