Morna The Maid

My God...I am aghast. Just...the more I read all evening, the more aghast I am. I knew it would be bad but not this bad. The lengths Dave and Dan are going to make everyone hate Sansa. You are suggesting that the show clearly indictes that Sansa not only thew Rickon under the bus just for the sake of power, but that she clearly wanted Jon dead as well? Is there no end to Dave and Dan's utter hate for this character? And by extension, the Starks? Why is this, why, why, w, why, WHY!!>?! For those who haven't read the books, show Sansa is acting exactly like book Cersei is at this point in the story. When we read the Walk of Shame chapter in the books, nobody feels sorry for her; instead we are glad she gets her comeuppance. It's what she deserves for doing horrible things. Next thing you know, we'll see Sansa in Season 7 ordering the torture of people. At this point in the books, Sansa is with LF in the Vale, she never goes to WF and LF has not yet thought of it. The Vale is a place of rest and respite for her after the horrors of KL. She is navigating a strange relationship with LF posing as his bastard daughter, but he acts as a father for the most part; she is on a redemption arc and learning to car for others conequences of actions. She is learning the fine art of flirting with boys her age. She is learning the fine art of politics and white lying, but she is not mean, malicious etc. IN many aspects she acts the young teenage virgin girl she is. Book Sansa might become--with enough abuse--the cold, calculating, bitter Sansa of the show, which is doingits best to turn her into book Cersei. But I doubt it. D/D never had a kind bone in Sansa's body or thought in her head.

I know, I wasn't expecting her to fight, that's why I put a :). But I can easily see her WANTING to fight! She's just a kid, she wants to be in the middle of the action, "but darn it, my Maester wants me to stay put, it stinks having to be me right now" etc. Dangit, I love her. But from the looks of things, her 620 men are mostly dead?

Questions I'm dying to have answered: What is this "Harp" theory that is going around, what will Sansa/Jon find in the WF crypt? Who was burning on the crosses? Did we get the rumored "The North Remembers" victory speech after the battle? I'm dying to know--how did Lil' Lady Mormont conduct herself in battle:), or not, what did she say/do/did she survive? Was LF riding a white horse? (I'm dying to know, did Dave and Dan go completely Gandalf with their HEEERO) So Tyrion shows up in Meereen, he's ruling it while she's gone in her name, and yet he *suddenly discovers he's a Lannister again* by giving her a not-so-subtle reminder of her Mad Dad and how KL has a great defense if she should try to take the IT by force....wildfire, lol. HUH? Oh and BTW...if you guys want a great thing to watch, it's The Normies on YouTube. They do the best reactions videos on the Net. Watch their reaction to Hardhome, it got them notic on MTV last year. CAN'T WAIT to watch their reaction video to this, it should be up by Teus. They do skits and a seperate post-episode discussion video as well.

Well, GRRM wrote both book and show episode Blackwater, and it was a pretty damn good battle. And I can't say that the Battle for Winterfell might play out in some similar fashion in the book. Or not....b/c Sansa will ride in with LF from the Vale, NEVER HAVING LEFT IT, and Stannis might burn Shireen when it looks like all is lost. he might die then, clearing the way for Sansa to take over WF with LF being the "power behind the throne" as he is set to be now. Tmug....Thanks for that report re Davos. OMG (thanks the old gods and the new, heck, I might even light a candle to Red Rahloo this one night. Mel probably wanted him to die in the battle, she's always been resentful of his hold over Stannis...so, Dvos mightnotdie in Book 6 after all, he has more to do after Rickon dies.... yeah, you better watch your scraggly old butt now Mel, Davos Seaworth is coming for your hide, the night will be dark and full of terrors, beyotch.:) (I don't see how she can kill him now? Might he yet die?) Sorry, he's my favorite character books and show, Liam Cunningham should get an Emmy or at least a TV show of his own. I made an idiot out of myself starting a thread a few days ago so sure he was going to die... Qyestions: So what image of him shown in the trailers? And who is burning on the crosses? Was LF riding a WHITE HORSE and did he say anything besides smirk? Did we get the rumored "North Remembers" victory speech? Did Lady Mormont survive the battle,what did she say and do? Again can't see the show for a coulple days, questions that need answering.

He gave him to Sansa to kill. Can't watch yet, but read a report on Reddit by someone who was an extra on the Stark side who said that Ramsey dies by hound attack, by his own dogs I think. Man, I hope that is the case. For me, only one question: does Davos die? The show-runners were sure trolling forehadowing in the trailers, but it seems it was just trolling....according to that report he doesn't.

Printed out AngryGOF's transcript today, the one with ASOIAF edition-style font and Aeron's thoughts in the same italics. Got a delicious sense of vindication, even comfort, from it. I walk around with it in my shoulder-bag as a talisman against all the stupidity on the show these days. (Eg: it's great to know that there's one more character who remains a believer in his religion, or Higher Power, even as his world crumbles around him...like Davos as he clings to the rocks, or Sam at the First of the First Men, etc. Aeron's continued devotion to the DG during his ordeal, even after he has given up all hope of rescue, is strangely moving. It's an "Eloi, Eloi..." moment to be sure but if he has stopped believing he would have "cursed god and died." Instead, he offers poor Falia the same comfort he uses to get himself through his ordeal. Else-wise, he'd say nothing to her, he'd think it was all a lie. (I've seen posts referencing the show in this thread...please, try not to. We are talking books here, since this is a book chapter, and the show has so utterly distorted the characters and their arcs that it is best to think of them as 2 seperate things. I say this as an open-minded book reader, as someone who used to love the show, even as recently as the middle of season 5, but is becoming very disillusioned about it. On the show, for example, no-one prays even offscreen, everyone is either an athiest or doesn't care, and the one person who did, Ian McShane's septon character, was killed off minutes after he appeared onscreen. Someone in another thread recently posited that ASOIAF was not just realistic, it was also idealistic in a strange way that gives you hope for humanity, and the show is just the opposite: deeply and needlessly cynical, and soul-crushing as a result, and this is why the show, for all its strengths, can never be redeemed. It's a **fantastic** post that I wished I'd written. I plan to copy parts of it for the "Fair Game" thread, if anyone's interested, it's on pg 12 or 13 of the "The North Storyline is Worse Than Dorne" thread, under the "GOT Casting" section in the GOT section of the Forum. As to what's in this chapter.....holy &^*^%! Not late to the part here, just to posting about it. I have o read the Euron is Satan essay too.I read "The Forsaken" 2 days after the transcripts appeared and it's still....epic as heck. I can totally see Euron and Cersei as the Unholy Power Couple of pre-Others invasion Westeros. Dany has her work cut out for her (as does Jamie? I'm one of those who subscribes to the Jamie is the valonqar theory...) Lots of great stuff in this thread which I hope to add to, when I have the time. EDIT: just began to skim through the "Euron Is Satan" essay. I always get annoyed with those who say that there is no religion in Tolkien. Has George ever said it? Anyone who says this obviously hasn't read the Silmarillion....just who are the Valar, the Maiar, and the Istari anyway? Who/what is Gandalf if not an archangel? Who is Morgoth if not Lucifer (In the Sil, the Universe was sung into being by a heavenly choir at the command of Eru, or Iluvatar, The One, and things went great until the angelic being who would become Morgoth in his vanity, changed his tune and threw everything into Dischord. Who was Lucifer before he became Lucifer, but the Great Choirmaster, before he rebelled and was cast down from Heaven?) Has anyone read The Collected Letters of JRR Tolkien, where he answers fan letters. Volumes of ink have been spilled about Tolkien's strong Chistianity/Catholicism. But Tolkien chooses to be much more subtle about it, not to be upfront, in LOTR, anyway. Why this is, people who are way more Tolkien devotees than me know, but there is a reason. The Silmarillion hosts all of Tolkien's invented patheon of "Pagan" gods in the First and Second Ages; while the Third-Age period of LOTR is his personal pean to Christianity. Therefore, these pagan gods he has invented have to remain offscreen, so to speak, even if his characters pray to them, which I'm sure they do. It's a jarring dischord from the Sil to the time-frame of LOTR if you look at the whole epic of Middle-earth in chronological order, an artistic weakness on grand scale; but we must accept it for intellectual purposes....or we should, anyway, even if it's wrong. I could write an essay myself in reply to that first paragraph. There are so many Christian references both in Tolkien's novels and, strangely enough, in Peter Jackson's adaptation that I feel like replying here, is there a place on this site where I could do that? (example: one of my favorite images from the book ROTK is Frodo and Sam in Mordor, at the end of their rope, Frodo collapsing on his knees clutching the Ring to his chest, whispering "Help me Sam, help me! I can't stop it!" and begins to crawl forward on his hands and knees. Sam kneels down beside him, pulls Frodo back up on his knees, and places the Ring between Frodo's palms, then enfolds Frodo's joined hands between his own two hands. Tolkien says they remained like that for some moments or something, joined "palm to palm" or something, I don't remember the exact words, some people can quote The Professor chapter and verse but I'm not one of them.:) Tolkien doesn't slam us over the head saying "Frodo and Sam are kneeling in prayer" but this is the vivid and powerful image readers get. Of course Peter Jackson could not replicate this onscreen, it would be too obvious an image; but there are other ways to be subtle in a visual medium. Hence Sam cradling Frodo in a "Pieta"-like pose and briefly--and memorably--looking skyward before launching into his famous "Do you remember the Shire, Mr Frodo?" speech. The Valar could very well have been in Sam's mind at that moment, but of course both Tolkien in the book and Jackson in his scene want us to fill in our own names. This ability they have given us to be able to "fill in our own names" gives the respective scenes their power and breaks the Fourth Wall for a brief and powerful moment; which is what Tolkien intended I guess. Having names of M-e dieties disances the tale from us, locks it behind a Fantasy wall. But it's a huge artistic risk--he had to have huge confidence in his story to be able to attempt it. But what the poster must mean is that Tolkien's work would appear a lot more realistic if his characters in LOTR prayed or had a religion "in house", as it were; not what we as readers take from the story. They do, in the Sil; there's Elves and men praying to, and interacting, with the Dieties of Middle-earth. These dieties do not make any appearance in LOTR except for a few very noted occasions, which leaves them mysterious. That may be seen as a flaw by some, esp if you were introduced to Middle-earth though the Sil (which very few people are, thank God; reading the damned thing is more difficult than the King James Old Testament!) but if you read LOTR first, as many do (the Hobbit doesn't count as kid's book) the discovery that there *are* gods and goddesses in Middle-earth, is seen as very annoying. At least it was for me at first.) Sorry for OT but b/c there's no place to reply to that statement in the essay....actually is there an area for discussion of GRRM and religion in the book reader section? I'm not over there a lot....

Phil P: Yes, I've read the books and know how Cersei really is. That' the point. All the stuff you mentioned, I don't see any of that on the show. Back in Season 4 I belive, we saw the Iron Bank in one episode, but where did that plotline go? When have we heard about Cersei giving the finger to the IB? And I got the impression this season that Cersei did want power oh yes, but she would have known EXCACTLY how to "handle it" if that pesky High Sparrow creature didn't magically appear (like the show repeatedly reminds us, it was *Cersei* who re-legitimized the FM Order--um, NOT) and those danged Tyrells weren't in the way, raining on the parade, doing stuff like seducing sweet innocent clueless Tommen away from Mommy. Before this season, the Tyrells were kinda kewl, but now that they're in cahoots with the HS apparently...now all of a sudden it's like, OMG Cersei/KL is in danger, let's off this HS punk for Westeros's sake. Like they came out of nowhere and just exploded into this socio-political threat. They didn't come from nowhere, not even on the show...but it's amazing how quickly we are being made to forget things. Like the Red Wedding and how outraged we were, in spite of the fact that we knew Robb had screwed up. Like how Sandor wasn't just about revenge against his brother, but finding his "little bird." Dave and Dan have pretty much killed that; Sansa stopped being anyone's "little bird" on, say, a certain wedding night. I wonder if they'll ever meet again (not impossible, since he was mentioned, sort of, in a Sansa and Brienne scene a few eps ago) but what will he think when he looks into her cold dead eyes. The face and eyes of a hardened woman....not the relatively unscathed--and certainly still maiden--young girl from the books whose first sexual awakening is unknowingly (to him) engendered by him. At the end of Book 5 Sansa has budding sexual feelings and dreams of the Hound kissing her get in the way as she goes about the Vale watching LF play politics with the Lord of the Vale, learning to flirt with boys her own age, and as she becomes foster parent to SweetRobin. Dave and Dan have simply killed one of the two great Beauty and the Beast "romances" of the books. This is one of the reasons book readers were so upset and continue to be, about her rape in S5. The story of book Sansa and the Hound was one of the few tender interludes in a grim story. Tender on reflection of course. It's hugely important b/c in a story that descends into hell and everyone is out for their own skin, she teaches this cold killer to feel his first compassion for a human being; he could never have eventually felt about Arya the way he did in book and even more so in the show if not for her. ("the wetness on his cheek that was not blood" etc.) She humanizes him, What he gave to her...well, her fantasies about knights. This may be strange, but there it is. We grasp for any human decency in this story no matter how small, and D/D have turned it into all revenge, revenge, revenge. Which brings me to Jamie "I dreamed of you" Lannister. He says that to..Brienne, in the book. Well, if spoilers for future episodes be true, that "romance" is offically dead as well. The "valonqar" part of the prophecy was signifigantly cut out of the show, which means Cersei will not be killed by her "little brother" (be that Jamie or Tyrion.) Nope, with the way things are going, they'll probably be the last 2 Lannisters alive and will die tragically and beautifully in each others' arms. Tyrion wants to kill Cersei? Really? I didn't know that. It's not like he mentioned his "sweet sister" in any sarcastic kind of way since 5X01, I could be wrong, he barely mentioned her at all, and that phrase, never. Maybe he will in the book, but I find it hard to believe that the show's two Black Hole Sues would ever stoop to something so low and sordid..on TV at least. See I'm differentiating between what's in the book and what future generations will remember as the definative version of ASOIAF. Yes, we may get all the books eventually, but this is a post-literate world. George can talk all he wants about GWTW book vs movie but I'll bet you 5 out of 100 people under 50 have read or will read GWTW, and that's just ONE book. No, you sat GWTW everyone knows it by the movie.

Oh yeah: I forgot one other "Black Hole Sue" plot involving Cersei. Her recently-acquired saintliness is such that it even stretches across the Narrow Sea, making Arya Stark "love" her. Arya can totes sympathize with a mother grieving for her child, (even more than her own family, apparently, I wonder why it's the VERY FIRST shred of sympathy we've seen from her in 4 seasons, I mean she's never shown mourning her family or reflecting on anything that's happened to her, not even shedding a single tear for ANYONE but "Cersei"? even though this is the opposite of the book...come to think of it, we've had whole long SCENES of Lannisters mourning their dead all through this series, but we've gone half the series with none of the Stark children remembering their parents, let alone their siblings existed before this season, and apparently Arya and Bran STILL don't. ) ANYWAY...even though she knows she's just watched a fabricated and skewed version involving that "grieving mother" who she knows murdered her own parents, one of them before her very eyes, it makes no difference. Doesn't she remember the play she *just* watched last episode *snark*. In the interests of staying faithful to the spirit of the books that don't pick and choose, we need also a powerful reminder of why we should sympathize with Starks. if I didn't know better, I'd say that Sansa is turning into Season 1-4 Cersei and Cersei is turning into Season 1-4 Sansa! (ie the "innocent victim of stuff she doesnt understand".) Which may be D/D's goal, since they worship Lena Headey so much. Who is a great actress, I love her too, but I still don't see why the total 360 flip on her character.

Apologies if anyone has made a reply to the type of post I'm going to write but I have to "reply" anyway to comments I'm reading on pg 10, I'm so steaming angry about some comments that I have to write even before I get to reading pgs 11 to now. Maybe this should be in the Criticize thread, but I'll write this here too. I absolutely DESPISE the level of deception being played by the show-runners here. This season was advertised as completely off the rail, different from the books" but it's not. They're playing a very, very deceptive game of balancing selective "adaptation" and invention. I would prefer straight invention at this point. But it's all in service of a cause, because unlike George, who presents all Houses equally in their respective strength and flaws, making you root for everybody, Dave and Dan have their favorite Houses and actors and are going to absurd lengths to serve their own personal fan-service. With themselves as the "fans" in this case. I will be polite about this though, so..here I go. the post that set me off was along the lines of "why would anyone want to root for the Starks? they're complete a-hole and George complete fan-service with the "north remembers" crap. Assuming the poster isn't a troll, (really? George screwing up a story D/D wrote? TROLL) Here's what I would have done, as a scriptwriter, just for the sake of making the story more interesting. Just as we are being presented with a version of the story that makes things complicated for Sana and Jon in dealing with their situation at this stage of the story, the show could also have taken some time to show scenes with each of the Northern Houses, showing how difficult it was for them to maneuver too. the big, big, HUGE fact from the books that D/D have not reminded the audience of is that not only did the Freys break guest right and kill people, but they did something else too. Not only did every Northern House lose a family member at the RW, Walder Frey is currently holding all the survivors hostage. This is a BIG fact: all the Houses have relatives that the Lannister allies the Freys are holding. So if the Houses are reluctant to publicly join Sansa Stark, they do not want to antagonize the Freys (yet). What the show needs to remind the viewers (if D/D are so stuck at this "why would we support someone who deals with the wildlings?" arc) is that the North has complications too. Just as Sansa has to deal with someone she hates (LF) to get a job done (overthrow the Boltons) these Northern Lords who hate Jon for the Wildlings should also be saying publicly, "Well, we hate Jon b/c he did this, but the Boltons must go and we need to get our hostages back somehow, so we may need to suck up to someone we hate" (Sansa) A double-dedeption, that makes for Nortern intruige nd amich more nteresting plot. Manderly is playing this game in the books, which is what makes his "The North remembers"speech so powerful. Without the fat of the hostaes, the impending "House Mazin" (UGH) Speech will not bee so epic. It'll be "well so what?" Hard choices made on *all* sides. INSTEAD it's a one-sided fight. D/D's great sin is making the North hate the Starks more then they should. If the Starks are so evil, just who exactly do the Northern Houses want to rule instead? the Boltons? There seems to be no northern unity (which is exactly the opposite of the books, where the Stark children are loved simply b/c Ned and Rickard were such great rulers, they will support them. Any sins are seen as Robert's cuase, not theirs. And tonight clinches it; D/D officially hate the Starks, since they had Sansa raped and Arya seriously wounded, after being repeatedly beaten to a pulp. At the same time, they are committing a mortal sin: they are making characters boring. Tryion and Cersei esp have become Black Hole Sues, they can do no wrong. (Look it up: there is a Tv trope called a Black Hole Sue.) Everyone in Meereen is a little child sitting at his feet basking in his wisdom, even the dragons; while Cersei is such a saint now, she doesn't even reply to someone who throws major shade at her, even when all the veiwers know it's completely out of character for her? She sits there as noble as Jackie Kennedy at JFK's funeral. Jaysus, Cersei. Do something. Snark. Complain. Crack an awesome bitchy joke as only Cersei can. Show some life. When Cersei Lannister goes cray-cray, I expect it to be on an epic scale, just like in the books. Even though her "flame doesn't burn so bright" anymore, she MUST have her Cersei-ness. But no. She must speak meekly if she speaks at all, and move quietly and sedately, as if she DOESN'T know that her loyal self-appointed servants Qyburn and Mountain are slaughtering her enemies in her name. Oh, she knows nothing now? But NOBODY gets past Cersei! You speak a word and you are ant food! Olenna just signed her death warrant in Ep 10 and of course the audience won't know how much they loved Olenna, they'll laugh with the rest. And Margeary is all of a sudden horrified that anyone like her grandma would DARE to throw shade at Cersei! And she will die for it! This is absurd you say? Well, she's sure acting like it! Anyone who touches the Lannisters are dead! We need to see a mixture of good and bad from the Starks (not just Dave and Dan's goal of making people hate Sansa, thinking Jon is a dimwit, Bran is nothing more than a colssal f*-up who could be responsible for the disasters of the past, Arya a killing machine with no "hole in her heart" mourning her family, etc.) Why not have Sansa evolve into a hero, someome who rises to triumph over her rape (instead of having it make her a bitch) while Jon remains a dimwit? Why can't we have a screw-up like Bran AND an Arya who stares at Needle and wipes a tear from her eye and says "I miss Jon and my family"? Just as we need to see the Lannisters as more than the "good guys" at this point (people not only need to see Cersei as a victime, they need to be reminded that she is suffering foe evils she created--the FM, and her personalityw, the whole thing hunting tyrion and how she madehim suffer, etc. she was Joffrey's mama boy. Jamie can't just be a badass taking names in the Riverlands and loving his sis, he has to be complex too. ..

Maybe it means another GOT tragedy, aka the incomparable Nina Gold doing her brilliant casting job as usual, and Dave and Dan destroying that as usual with a cringe-worthy script?

ugh....double post...the site is really slow...sorry

I am so, so, so, so, SO glad I read the Ranters thread. All of the Ranters knew the Rickon thing was coming...and folk, hate to break it to ya, but it's gonna get worse. A LOT WORSE. I'm sick and tired of dead direwolves, GRRM "extinction" comments or not. We need to see some of Ramsey's dogs taken out in a really nasty way. Anyone got any ideas? Since D/D think Ramsey's relationship with his dogs is more important to the overall story than the Stark kids and their direwolves.

I am so, so, so, so, SO glad I read the Ranters thread. All of the Ranters knew the Rickon thing was coming...and folk, hate to break it to ya, but it's gonna get worse. A LOT WORSE. I'm sick and tired of dead direwolves, GRRM "extinction" comments or not. We need to see some of Ramsey's dogs taken out in a really nasty way. Anyone got any ideas? Since D/D think Ramsey's relationship with his dogs is more important to the overall story than the Stark kids and their direwolves.

More thoughts: Isaac H-W has really grown into a sweet young man. No Hollywood ego, and so far, all his interviews have been stellar. I'll bet the hearts of older mothers everywhere are just breaking for Bran. And it's great how he portrays Bran as somehow being still innocent and uncorrupted despite great suffering. I remember Michelle Fairley's DVD commentary for season 3 and how she waxed enthusiastic at how he looked as he was growing up, and Nikolai's comment, "You speak like a mother." And I recall rumors of someone seeing a car with Michelle in it speeding through Belfast. Not LSH (thank God), just Michelle wanting to catch up with him I'm sure, and maybe spend time on set watching him work. (*wipes tear from eye*) Davos: my favorite character. George, PLEASE don't kill him off until the very end, or have him and *one* of his sons survive, dammit, Devan perferably. The one really decent bloke in Westeros, even Ned had his faults, though not many. I mean, just why DID he smuggle that food to Stannis huh? It would be easy to think' "well he saw an opportunity for personal gain if I did this right" (ie a selfish motive) or he would not have done it at all (what was Stannis to him, the orphan of Flea Bottom, but just another dysfuctional King fighting one of his petty scores that bankrupt kingdoms and prey on the smallfolk, to someone like him Stannis would be one of the 1%) but no, he's able to see humanity even in the tablois headliners of the day, so to speak. it says on the HBO History and Lore segment that Davos was simply moved to act by memories of the horrors he'd witnessed in KL, people dying of hunger in the streets of Flea Bottom and he didn;t wish that on anyone, not even a King. Just PURE NOBILITY right there. (Can I just make a "Davos For President" T-shirt?:) Anyway, a lot of people are harping about his sudden conversion to enthusiasm to Red Rahloo (ha), how he's waxing enthusiastic about her "miracles" all of a sudden. I think it's an act, a pep talk, anything to get her to bring Jon back. Whom I suspect he cares about all of a sudden b/c don't forget, eason 5 he did get to know Jon at CB a little, and jon is simply potentially the last hope, the only guy left with sense in this sorry part of Westeros. Now, can I nominate MY take on THE ABSOLUTE WORST SCENE IN THE HISTORY OF GOT? For you Rockroi, it was Walda's death. For me it was Sansa and Brienne this episode. OMG THE GHASTLY SCRIPT. Imagine this scenario: you are seperated from your kid sister in a horrible war, you know she's out there in the thick of it and going through God knows what. You hate her in a sister-catfight kind of way, and sometimes you DO want her head on a spike (but not really), but as time goes on you miss your destroyed family so much you find you don't hate her anymore, you'd give anything just to see her stupid little face.:) (Of course the show never conveys this, nothing about Sansa losing her Stark-ness, or any Stark kid's growing warging powers/wolf-dreams-they're all having them by this point, except for her--nothing about Jon thinking of Arya, nor "the hole in Arya's heart", etc. (That's why the flashback was so great: Bran is the first Stark kid in 4 seasons who conveys this utter loneliness and longing.) Now, after say 2 yrs of this, you meet someone who tells you she's been with your sister, spoken to her, BUT your now 13-yr-old sister is WITH A STRANGE MAN who you don't know if he was a perv, a friend, a rapist what, you have to take the word of this strange woman who says 'oh, I don't think he hurt her, she looked ok with him" and then when you ask where she is this stranger says SHE LOOKED FOR HER FOR ONLY 3 DAYS AND THEY DISAPPEARED AND SHE WAS FINE WITH THAT, just up and gave up the search you know, and what do you have to say to all this? "HOW'D SHE LOOK"????????? (no emotion on face, not even, OMG if that was me I would have jumped up, grabbed her by the face and shook her till she was dizzy and SCREAMED at her "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE DISAPPEARED? WHERE IN SEVEN HELLS *IS* SHE?!??!) We see Sansa have almost no reaction. "How'd she look?" it's as if Sophie herself is unable to register the stupidlity of the script!!! "Can this be real? COME ON". She should be pacing the clearing gesticulating wildly, agitation, "we have to find her!" etc. But no, we have to zip along, the plot must go on, we are running out of time. The next bit was somewhat believable, I imagine most rape victims would not be eager to re-live their experiences with a stranger, so Sansa's silence when Brienne asked about Winterfell was ok, but I couldnt't help thinking "IF ONLY YOU KNEW..." but of course Dave and Dan hate Sansa and keep giving Sophie the worst dialogue of the series next to the Sand Snakes. And yeah Pocketsavior, I'd forgotten Aeron Dampair's mantra. We may get it at the Kingsmoot, but I'm not holding my breath. I must be one of the few who like the Ironborn, they're like the Vikings of Westeros. BTW, does your screen-name come from Spinal Tap? LOVE that movie..Tap's second-best album, though..the best IMO was "Smell The Glove" (apologies if you don't get the Spinal Tap reference, one of the greatest comedies ever made!

Rockroi, OMG your post about Walda's death...OMG LMAO I just spit iced tea all over my keyboard. "claw-like mandible appendages"...OMG but that's an insult to all crustacean life though, both Patchface and the Ironborn would want your head on a spike! Can you re-post that in the Ranter's thread? Your post was an honorary Rant but this isn't the Criticize thread, so I'll throw the show a bone and say the few things I liked. I say "the show" and not Dan and the two Daves, because everything in this episode and Season 6 so far has come about not because of the writers/show-runners but in spite of them, and at this stage it's a wonder we are getting anything good at all. 1) The performances of Lean Headey and Alfie Allen. God, somebody just give Alfie an Emmy. GRRM wrote a complex character, someone who begins the saga as this totally despicable character who you just want the worst for, but then when Martin obliges and drags out his agony and torture for far longer than is necessary, to the point of grotesqueness, it's just another of his many ways of demonstrating his opinion that revenge is just wrong (the show, of course, takes the opposite tack, and not only wallows in it and glorifies it, but even strips it of drama. We haven't had a good revenge scene since Oberyn but that was screwed up. And Ellaria in the books is THE great pacifist but not on the show! But anyway, I am utterly amazed at how Alfie is able to draw forth new shades of pathos for Theon. It took some acting chops to skillfully portray the slow and subtle battle between the theon/Reek persona and when one would supercede the other. And how even when hobbling through snowy woods without saying a word, he is able to convey that "I am still neither wholly Theon nor wholly Reek" persona. And the flickers of emotion on his face, embracing Sansa under the tree last episode he even has a moment of sublimity. (never mind the scene refs Magnus embracing Alice Munro under the waterfall in 1991's Last of the Mohicans.) His subtle facial expressions, how after 3 seasons of this character being tortured can he pull new tricks out of his bag. My God. As for Lena, she knows Cersei, or rather D/D' whitewashed "tragic tiger mom" Cersei, so well, she makes many an Unsullied feel for her. (In the books, I don't know who's more the drunken sot at this stage, her or Tyrion. They're flip sides of the same coin: Cersei is the Lannister who drinks and *doesn't* know things. Yes, she drinks a little, but she should be the one practically puking on the floor, not just Tyrion! And both Littlefinger and Varys are sitting back and enjoying the spectacular show of "Cersei's Disasterous Deconstruction of the Seven Kingdoms", they are actually in awe of the utter stupidity of her decisions as Queen Regent. It's like the Seven Kingdoms are a fleet of ships and Cersei is the wildfire destroying them. It's amazing! But we see none of this on the show, of course.) But back to her performance: we get that sense of personal tragedy and impending doom. Literally, the thread of her life is unraveling (a great touch; I'd love to know if Lena threw that in there or was it in the script.) I think of a quote from the book: "Her fire has gone out, she who used to burn so bright." But this is because both of these actors have had the time onscreen spread out over 5 seasons to get to know their characters, to get comfortable with them and settle into them. The can thus anticipate their actions and even begin to be creative, improvise and go in new directions. Now imagine if someone like Euron, who is being set up as the shows' new villain to follow Ramsey, had been set up like this, with the Ironborn plot sprinkled out over seasons 4-5, not much, but maybe a half hour a season, so Euron could be teased and built up the way The Walking Dead built up Nagle (sorry my brain fails me today, but you know who I mean:)...and we could have the cnflict set up between Asha/Yara, Euron, Balon, and the Damphair. Sorry, 2 minutes of exposition on a bridge to make up for this lack will not do. Just a note on great acting and what this series could do if it tried.