frenin

Often wonder how events would have unfold had Robert not forgotten about his bastards. I can see Renly using Edric as a shield.

So did Jaime, that's my point. He's a knowing and willing participant every step of the way. He's as possessive with Cersei as Cersei is with him, he was outraged at the idea of her sleeping with someone else. How many years do you think Jaime would have suffered Robert's son, as in one who looked just like him but came out of his sister's legs, before he got Bran'd? Jaime also resented both Robert and Ned because he felt they had done worse than him and he was reviled by everyone while they received honor, glory and utmost respect. And let us not forget the one time Cersei did get pregnant with Robert... It was Jaime who get her the abortifacent. None of that has any reason to happen without the original sin. In fact the moment the secret was out, and the moment Petyr or Varys figured it out it was out, war became unavoidable. And for that, Jaime share plenty of the blame. Again, I'm not seeing the practical difference between Jorah and Shavepate

Whose cock was it? Moonboy? Plenty of those are truly unpopular and i couldn't disagree more, take my like.

So are Jorah's tbf. There's this meme i saw a while ago that sums Jorah and Dany perfectly And honestly, if Jorah was in Mereen he'd tell her the same thing most of her advisors have been telling them to do, strike and strike hard against the masters... she didn't want to listen to that counsel, doubt she'd listen to Jorah.

I do not remember a single Dany advisor who uncritically agrees with her, Barristan disagrees a lot, so does Daario, Shavepate etc.

Kinda like Martin does? We have that throawau line from Rhaenyra talking about how Joffrey did not know enough about the bonds of the dragons and then nothing.

He did tho. Ask the Baratheons, he ostracized quite literally for not supporting his mother. The idea that he did not want to antagonize Greens, or anyone for that matter, falls flat when the little we know about him is him antagonizing powerful lords. But i do find likely that Aegon II as the legitimate king was settled with Viserys' ascension as simple realpolitik and it'd be as ironic as a Green killing Jaehara.

He regretted it like two lines afterwards. Yes. The issue with the plan is quite literally buy time to establish their power in the capital and then project in on the continent. Once Eddard is acknowledged as Lord Protector and Regent, he will be free to project the power of the Crown onto Tywin, Stannis and Euron, who is a nonfactor in this equation. The problem with Ned, and Renly to an extent, is that they had plenty of allies on the Realm at large but they were quite isolated in King's Landing, if they can buy time to call on those allies, it's pretty much gg for the Lannisters. No, he wouldn't. He would sit quiet on his island till both Ned and Robert were dead. Out all of those, the only one who poses an actual danger is Dany and she's half a world away. Neither Oberyn, nor JonCon nor Mance pose any threat at all till the power of the rebels, and the kingdom at large, collapses in its entirety. Why? No, he wouldn't have. Why would he would he? Ned quite literally planned on seizing the children with the Goldcloaks anyway and he knew he'd confront the Lannisters, and he was sure of his victory. His only objection to Renly's plan was that Robert was still not dead. Why? What? It'd be Ned enforcing the terms of Robert's will, how in the world does it make him a usurper?

It makes absolutely zero sense how Daeron the Daring is considered a good guy. It's truly baffling. He does three things in the war, burn soldiers, massacre civilians and refugees and die to a tent.

Yes, especially because it's dull af after awhile-

Obviously, Martin quite literally told us to forget about. My gripe is that he goes out of his way to excuse Jaime while shitting on Cersei. Truly odd, especially because his excuse is a characterization he simply does not write on Jaime till after he loses his hand.

Well her going full Herod is obviously the biggest. I've always found it sus how Martin uses apologism for Jaime acting against children yet condemns Cersei for the same thing. Then again, that's one of my biggest gripes with him.

Fair enough. Indeed, at no point it is even hinted that the difference between Rhaenyra and Aegon is a Septon anointing them. If that was so important, it'd happen. You mean the people who are now his allies and have won him the war? That seems a facile argument. But one side was wrecked militarily, in fact the only Green who could, theoretically at least, renew hostilities is Lyonel Hightower, who doesn't get a position of power!! In the aftermath of the Robellion, Tyrells and the Martells are in a far better position of strength than the Greens are in the aftermath of the Dance and yet... The rest of the Greens were too weak or too busy to start the war and yet... those were the Greens who were appeased and if appeasement was so important, it's even weirder the fact that Cregan Stark, a hardcore Black, could have kept the Handship and the Regency for himself if he cared enough to protest for it. All very sound.

He was anointed by the Septon who was there, unlike say Aegon III or the first Aegon who were anointed by the High Septon. At any point did Oldtown give his blessing. Certainly, my point isn't whether Rhaenyra was robbed or not. Simply that the aftermath of the Dance and how it goes down in history doesn't really add up with what we see in F&B. It becomes apparent it's one of those cases where Martin thought the ending first and that's why plenty see the dissonance. The War was not completely resolved because... Corlys Velaryon, after Cregan refused absolute power, decided to give power to the Greens, an arrangement that wasn't part of the original deal. It's as if Jon Arryn decided to fill half the small council with Oberyn Martell and JonCon... Or Daeron the Good decided to put Blacks in government, Tywin giving pro Starks... It's a baffling arrangement that never happened or happens again that's specifically done so the story can flow a certain way, whereas this is fiction at the end of the day, you can really feel the hand of the author in the Dance, to an extent I've rarely see in his other works.

Same thing, with steroids, can be said about Aegon II... And yet he is Aegon II. That's unironically the soundest reason there is. Yeah, by amnesty, not by declaring Aegon II the rightful King and Rhaenyra a traitor. The matter is indeed kinda hushed afterwards, only kinda brought by Munkun by declaring women could not inherit when discussing about Aegon's succesion. Fact remains, there are lots of inconsistencies with the end of the Dance but we've gone over this before. The way the war ends and the subsequent regency and how either sibling go down in history don't add up, then you have weirder things like the Baratheons somehow getting punished and sidelined for choosing the Greens, even though Oliver Baratheon was born when the war ended, and the Hightowers being rewarded for it... Okay.

What are you talking about? Doesn't make them less pricks. Lysa wasn't pregnant and he knew that and there was no point in resenting her years afterwards. But this has come full circle and i'm pretty tired, so agree to disagree.

If only they didn'y have a full treasury to pay for those things. He was a bad husband for not trying in his marriage, that he resented the 18yo for having sex just nails it.

He ruled it... badly and he could not do the one job he was supposed to be good at, put some sense into the King he had just made. And regarding Lysa...

We simply do not know and the answer offered are unsatisfactory to say the least.

Eh, the Targlings are alive because of him, he's a terrible Hand and husband but doesn't seem like a terrible person. Him raising in rebellions rather than killing his golden boys is badass af.

Least fav POV: Vic, although any Greyjoy could have made the cut. Least fav non POV: Janos Slynt Least fav character overall: Stannis, Slynt, Galazza Galare.

Whereas i was very much indifferent about the whole book, Aegon's regency was without of doubt one of the most entertaining bits i've read in a good long time.

I do have to agree indeed, when a man comparing himself to gods completely seriously is not a sign of narcissism there's only one thing for me to say. Bravo George. How doesn't it make perfect sense? One of the things that made him believe he was a different breed was very much his skill in combat, lost that he does not know who he is anymore. You keep asking me if i'm sure. Do you have a big reveal you're just teasing? Him being a great knight was part of his identity, he lost that. Can you quote it? No, I asked what others and i stated that he was too thinking too about Cersei when it came to Brienne. That him considering pretty is not the same as him being attracted to them. Then again this whole discussion started because of the assertion Cersei could not do better than Jaime because he is her twin, it seemed she found her match in Aurane who resembled the person she truly wanted. You do not believe there's nothing odd or narcissistic on the fact that the person Jaime fell in love with was his carbon copy... it is not odd at all, it is just Jaime finding himself hot but there is nothing to see here. And howdy, he seemed to recall every three seconds the fact that she had fucked even with Moonboy, Jesus i wonder if there's no correlation. Indeed, you seemed to reach that conclusion earlier but couldn't help yourself i guess. Debating is fun, so long it's civil, and when we get tired or bored, i'll call it quits. Cersei has never said they resembled each other and she thought about both of them quite a bit, when she saw Aurane her first thought was Rhaegar, not Jaime. Unless the point is that they both glow at night. I don't think a person having blond golden hair and green eyes resembles one who has silver platinum hair and violet eyes. So is Loras, i don't remember Cersei noticing or anyone else for that matter. The only comparison we have is from Cersei, who said that Jaime was nothing compared to beatiful Rhaegar. Everyone has a type but when the type happens to be yourself, it becomes sus.

So Jaime saying that he and his family too are above the laws of men, just like gods is simply a severe case of lovesick. Ahain, how convenient, i wonder what the reaction would be if Cersei said that. Yeah, maybe OP was onto something when he's calling the double standards when it comes to the twins. He does not need to care about politics, he still believes he can be a god. There's an even more obvious way to get to be with Cersei, the one Ned offered them, getting the hell out of there but no, the first thing that comes to his not at all narcissistic ass is imitating the ptolemaic dynasty with god complex. Come one, spill it aalready. A part of it yeah. Including, incoming headcanon i agree beforehand, but Kevan already knew Cersei was meant to Rhaegar so she was never that in love with Jaime. Weird, i don't think Jaime makes that connection with Kevan but admittedly, i may have missed it. No, i didn't i asked what others. Jaime wasn't attracted by the Tully sis. Nope, Jaime saw them pretty and moved on quickly. But if that's the bar then what are we even arguing? Cersei was in love with Rhaegar who resembled nothing like Jaime and that's why she was attracted to Auranne so it seems she too can bigger and better. No he doesn't, funnily enough you and Tyrion reach to the same reasoning. Jaime thought his own reflection was hot, nothing weird about it stop staring, staring and also projected a vaague and undefined idea of partner in Cersei... vague and undefined in so far as the only thing that breaks the camel back is her cheating.

I find this hard to believe, especially given the fact those two spent long periods of their formative years apart from each other, infant Cersei would need to be Lord Voldemort in order to completely submit Jaime to her will. But i do agree that Cersei did manage to condition adult Jaime, he's trouble by the fact he got an erection for a woman not named Cersei. What it is? I know what Jaime says and the context in which he says it, it is still narcissistic as hell to say it. What do you call the Doctrine of Exceptionalism Jaime tried to imitate that quite literally meant the Targaryen were gods among men if not that? Quite. Nah Jaime feels above others for a combination of who he is and he's skill in combat, he lost one of them, he lost his identity. For the most part yeah. And wasn't that Tyrion? Anyway, same thing regardless. I did not say she did not count, don't get so up in arms, i said Jaime reverted his thoughts back to Cersei pretty much inmediately. Eeeh, noting someone is attractive=/ being interested in someone. And i don't remember Jaime ever saying he found the Tully sisters hot lol, and no Jaime was not interested in the Tully sisters either, he was far more interested in Brynden and his stories. He has only ever gotten aroused by Cersei and Brienne, who btw he was thinking about and comparing with Brienne when he got a boner. He found his own reflection hot, so much he became infatuated with him. You sure? Tyrion believes Jaime find attractive Cersei because he saw his own reflection, you're saying he loves Cersei because he finds her hot... as if what he finds hot isn't a person who looks just like him. I'm sure there's a term for that...