Gilbert Green

He acquired a sex slave in book 1. He sent an armed man to sieze her, ordered her to pretend to love him and (by telling her the Tysha story) warned her what might happen if she did not pretend hard enough. She was his sex slave, not his lover. And she did not mock him. She only forgot her place. He killed his sex slave Shae. And he killed her for the crime of not really loving him. More or less as he implicitly threatened from the start, when he told her the Tysha story. As for Shae testimony being false ... I expect he let slip more than he intended when he was with Shae and drunk with power, sex and booze. How much of what she said was really false? Tyrion is innocent of Joffrey's murder, only in the sense that someone else got to Joffrey first. Murdering Joffrey, when he finally got around to it, would hardly be the worst thing he had ever done either. It would have bordered on self defense or justifiable tyrannicide.

[a blast from the past] TYRION SUCKS: A RETROSPECTIVE PART II: POOR TYRION [in the mountains] TYRION: Hey Bronn! Want to hear my tale of woe? BRONN: No. TYRION: When I was just a lad, Jaime and I rescued a starving unwashed common girl who was being chased by brigands. While Jaime pursued them, I took her to an inn, got her drunk, and had my way with her. She cried when I took her maidenhood. That sucked! But then she said she loved me. That rocked! So I married her. Then dad found out. He was pissed. He made Jaime tell me the truth. She was a whore. BRONN: A virgin whore? TYRION: Yes. Jaime paid the pimp double. Anyway, once I realized that she did not really love me for my dong, I was devastated. So I gang-raped her. My dong made me do it … and my dad … and the devil. They all made me do it. An entire platoon of soldiers helped too. BRONN: Wow, that really … . So what became of her then? TYRION: Dunno! Who cares! She never really loved me, the bitch. BRONN: I would have killed the man who did that to me. TYRION: My dad? Jaime? You may get the chance. A Lannister pays his debts. BRONN: No … I mean … if I was a wench, I would kill the man who … er … oh never mind. TYRION: Poor, poor Tyrion! FANS: <sob> [shortly] HICKS: Hee Haw! We are Evil Hicks, and we totally suck. Prepare to be raped and murdered, foolish travelers. BRONN: (leaping to his feet) Who dies first! TYRION: No, Bronn! Hear me, Evil Hicks! I am Tyrion Lannister. My father is Tywin Lannister, the richest and most evil of the lowland lords. See us safely through these mountains, and you shall be richly rewarded. SHAGGA: I shall chop off your manhood and … HEAD HICK: Quiet, Shagga. Halfman, I am intrigued by your offer. What can you give us? Gold? Silk? Steel? Swords? Mail? TYRION: Not just that! I can offer you the Vale of Arryn. You can rape and murder EVERYBODY! HICKS: HEE HAW!!! TYRION: (aside) Take that, Lysa Arryn! [back at the crossroads] [iNKEEPER, now a corpse, hangs from a tree] TYRION: (to INKEEPER) A room, a meal, and a flagon of wine! That was all I asked. INKEEPER: […] TYRION: Well? INKEEPER: […] TYRION: (walking past) Poor, poor Tyrion! [inside] TYRION: Hey dad! Want to hear my evil plan to turn the Vale of Arryn into a smoking wasteland? TYWIN: What? TYRION: I said … Do you want to hear my evil plan to … MESSENGER: My Lord! The Stark host is moving down the causeway. TYWIN: Hear me, Brave and Fearsome Hicks. The Stark host is approaching. Fight for us, and you shall be richly rewarded. HICKS: Lion-Lord, we already have Half-man's promises. We have no need of yours. TYWIN: Good point! But what would you rather do? Rape and murder helpless peasants, or fight bravely against fierce and skilled warriors? SHAGGA: Er … um … well … Shagga want to … FIGHT BRAVELY. HICKS: Yes. Hicks want to FIGHT FIERCE WARRIORS. We will march with you, Lion-Lord. HEE HAW HEE HAW HEE HAW HEE HAW! TYRION: I thought you were supposed to be EVIL hicks. HICKS: And Halfman will march with us. TYRION: Er… [later, before the battle] TYRION: Bronn, most evil of minions, I have a task for you. I want you to fetch me an EAGER HAPPY whore. Jyck used to fetch me sullen, miserable whores, or timid whores who used to scream in horror at my ugly purple dong. I DON'T LIKE THAT. Make sure it's an EAGER HAPPY whore. I also want young and pretty. BRONN: Gotcha! [exit] BRONN'S VOICE: (offscreen) Surrender that wench in the name of LANNISTER! (offscreen) Clash! Ching! Clash! Chang! WOMAN'S VOICE: (offscreen) EEEK! PODRICK: What's that noise? TYRION: What noise? PODRICK: I thought I heard a woman scream. TYRION: Well, I'm sure it has nothing to do with me. I sent for an EAGER HAPPY whore. [later] [enter BRONN and SHAE] TYRION: (to Bronn) Is this her? SHAE: HI! I'M AN EAGER HAPPY WHORE! (Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy). TYRION: Okay, listen up, whore. I am a LANNISTER; a rich and powerful lord, and you are a whore. I shall keep you as long as I want, and pay you as much as I please. How do you feel about that? SHAE: EAGER and HAPPY! TYRION: Okay, but I will want more than just eager happy sex. I want you to laugh at my jokes, even if they are not funny, and things like that. SHAE: Hahaha. But m'lord, your jokes ARE funny. [later] TYRION: Where'd you get her, Bronn? BRONN: From a knight. He was loath to give her up, but my blade at his throat changed his thinking. TYRION: I mislike your methods. BRONN: [shrug] Fine, I shall take her back. TYRION: Er, on second thought, I LIKE your methods. But you have made me an ENEMY. What shall we do about THAT! TYRION & BRONN: [whisper whisper] don't want him beside me in the battle [whisper whisper] dad put me in the vanguard [whisper whisper] SHAE: M'lord, I woke and heard voices – something like "put my Enemy in the van …" TYRION: What? SHAE: I mean … I awoke and found you gone, m'lord. TYRION: So, tell me about my Enemy … I mean … the man you were boinking before me. SHAE: Oh … he's nobody … no threat to you … he's just a small man. TYRION: Did you just say SMALL MAN!!? SHAE: Oops! TYRION: So what am I? A GIANT? SHAE: Er … um … you're … a giant? YES! MY GIANT! MY GIANT OF A LANNISTER! And I am your EAGER HAPPY WHORE! TYRION: Yes … well… that's okay then. [later] TYRION: Dad, I hate you. You don't love me. TYWIN: Uh oh! This crap again! TYRION: You sent me into battle with the Hicks. You don't care if I DIE! TYWIN: Jaime does not whine like this. He is only TOO eager to rush into battle. TYRION: But he's bigger than me. You just like him best and it's NOT FAIR! MESSENGER: My Lord! Terrible news! Jaime was ambushed and captured by the Starks, as he rushed to battle. TYWIN: Oh no! THEY HAVE MY SON! TYRION: SEE! You like him best! TYWIN: Enough, Tyrion. I have work for you. I need you to go to King's Landing, and rule in my stead, as Hand of the King. TYRION: Uh … gosh, why me? Why not Uncle Kevan? TYWIN: You're my son! TYRION: You're only saying that because Jaime has been captured. TYWIN: Tyrion, will you please stop whining, and get your ass to King's Landing. TYRION: Okay, okay! TYWIN: And one more thing, Tyrion. TYRION: What? TYWIN: When you get to court, no more whores. TYRION: See? You don't love me. Poor Tyrion! [later] TYRION: Shae, I am taking you to King's Landing. How do you feel about that? SHAE: Um … EAGER … and … HAPPY?

I'm sorry that you find me so annoying. But of course, I was only disagreeing with you. And not even by much. And I'd rather discuss the books than our mutually annoying personalities. So feel free to stop telling me how much you don't like me at any time. I have no problem with you. As long as we can discuss the books. And as long as you can learn to handle a little disagreement without all this pique. Are you asking me to post my own WINDS outline?

I find wicked dragons more interesting than nice ones. Because they are monsters. And at some point, some brave man is going to have to slay them. Especially the black one that eats little maidens. But it seems few in the fandom want or expect this. They think of the 3 dragons so far as Dany's scaly cuddle bunnies. And they don't want anyone to stick a pin in the power-fantasy that they represent. And if a maiden or two gets eaten along the way, well, you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. IMHO, they would indeed be boring, if they were only part of a Dany power fantasy. But that's not where I think this is going.

I don't find them boring. As for underused, well, it's book 5 and none-have shown up in Westeros yet. Unless the Dragon of Winterfell counts. I think it does, but the other foot is taking a long time to drop there as well. The only problem I have with the dragons is that the plot is advancing too slowly.

Dany's last chapter in WINDs is actual text. And we were discussing it. Because it rather relates to the question of whether she is about to be taken prisoner. Okay. And the issue we were discussing is whether of not Dany becoming a Dothraki prisoner is one of the things we KNOW will happen in WINDs. Dany's imprisonment is part of your outline. And I don't even see it as particularly likely, much less certain. So I was discussing it with you. I am happy to agree to disagree if you are bored of the conversation. But must you pout?

This is going to be his last book, I think. Whatever his good intentions, I doubt he will even start the next one. So I am happy to let him cover as much ground as he can, however long it takes. That will give readers, and any future authors he assigns to help him, a better idea of where he intends the story to go.

Debating the books is what we do here, and I don't see the point in telling me not to. I just don't see Dany as in "very bad shape". Unless bonding with a monster like Drogon is inherently a terrible bad thing, which it may well be. But be that as it may, she does not come to them as a starving beggar. Hungry she may be, but she sweeps down on them from the sky, scattering them in terror, and takes one of their horses without so much as a "by your leave". When did I ever hint she would just roast Khal Jhogo without any story whatsoever? Obviously she's going to get a bunch of Dothraki screamers behind her, and return to Meereen, and eventually bring them to Westeros. I did not even rule out her going to Vaes Dothrak to pick up one or two more Dothraki hordes. I just don't think she has just been taken prisoner. And no, I don't want to see her as badass at all times. But yes, she is being a badass (for better or for worse) in those final paragraphs. That's just an honest reading of the text. They were indeed acting as one in the final paragraphs. To which you retort "they were not acting as one before that". Okay. Fair enough. But I think the story progresses in those final paragraphs. The dragon bond goes both ways. In some ways Drogon is calling the shots as much as she is. No, Drogon did not want to bring her back to Meereen to marry Mr. H, and try to be a good ruler who plants trees. But he'll bring her back as a fiery conqueror, ahead of a raping murdering horde of Dothraki screamers. And on to Westeros. Yes, he will. Drogon is fine with that agenda.

Drogon and Dany were of one mind. He came when she called. She wanted him to chase the Dothraki. I don't know who was following whose commands. But they were acting as one. Drogon was eating a horse. And so was she. She was one with her dragon. I just reread the final paragraph of the chapter, and I don't much agree with you. Perhaps a dragon-bond is akin to madness or "delirium". But if Dany and Drogon were afraid of that Dothraki horde, they should have flown in the other direction.

I don't agree that they were in very bad shape. Less-than-perfect shape, maybe. And if Drogon senses no particular hostility between the Donthraki and Dany, he may let them hang out together without intervening; only to intervene later when things get hostile. That's plausible enough, and it could in the end amount to the same thing.

Yes, but who knows what that means? She's not, for instance, going to find the House with the Red Door in the Dothraki capital. I don't pay much attention to the show. If you think it will happen because it happened on the show, then fair enough. I expect she will do something to get some Dothraki behind her. Maybe even go to the Dothraki capital. But get taken prisoner? It does not, at least at first glance, seem to me that that would help much. It seems to me she would have to do that anyway. It is not as though some psychic Dothraki controlling Queen Bee resides in the Dothraki captial. And why does she need to control every single Dothraki in the universe anyway? I would tend to guess that a single raping, murdering Dothraki horde might well be sufficient for plot purposes.

if GRRM is joking about Winds coming in 2025, it is time to mark your calendars for 2028.

People are actually allowed to disagree with you. They can even say "you are wrong". I don't recall those precise words, but so what? And no, that is NOT the same thing as telling you you are not allowed to disagree with them. You are projecting. You just spent two entire paragraphs talking down to me and telling me (in effect) to shut up (while claiming you never did). Yeah, I'm not particularly interested in that kind of conversation either. Feel free to stop at any time. Or (better yet) return to talking about the books. Provided (of course) that you can handle disagreement. As for me saying "untrue things", I don't know what things I have said that you claim are untrue. You are just (in effect) telling me (yet again) to shut up.

I was merely trying to offer a piece of constructive criticism, not tear apart your whole outline. Asha and Theon know whatever they know, and will find out whatever they need to know. Whatever they learn about events on the Iron Islands, we can follow along with their POVs and be just as surprised (or not) as they are. And it is not as though they are likely to learn anything from Aeron any time soon. On the other hand, I would not necessarily be shocked if Aeron returns to the Iron Islands before they do. She wasn't surrounded and she wasn't a prisoner. Not yet, anyway. Drogon's opinion is that horses and riders are both good eating. Dany becoming a prisoner of the Dothraki again, or Drogon abandoning Dany again, would be the plot going round in circles. I believe and hope that the plot will not go round in circles, but progress. Drogon left Dany because she was plotting to chain him up. They have no such disagreements now. Drogon can still fly, breathe fire, and kill and eat a horse. I'm not saying he's 100% healed, but he seems fine to me.

You never suggested a definition. You merely said, in effect, "I am non-binary and non-binary means me." Which tells us nothing. You are only an anonymous person on the internet, and we don't know you, just as you don't know us. I have no idea why you think you are objectively more non-binary than me or than Lord Varys. Nor do I care. The only person who suggested it meant androgynous was you. I disagreed, but I was happy to agree with you that Brienne is somewhat androgynous. But you were not happy with that agreement, for some reason. I was also happy to agree with you that Brienne is at least somewhat gender non-conforming. But I don't think that means the same as non-binary either. Nobody told you you could not have your own head canon. The only person telling people to shut up and sit down was you. What are you insinuating? If people did not disagree with your other stuff, maybe they agreed. I never told you to shut up and sit down. What are you talking about? Basically, you are saying it is okay for others to have different takes from yours, as long as they don't express or defend them. Once again, the only person telling people to shut up and sit down is you.

Brienne identifies as a women. Just not a "fitting" or "proper" woman, rather a "freakish" one. And she can't be a proper man, in her opinion, because she is, in her view, not a man at all. Nothing above contradicts that. After all, if she were a man, she would certainly be strong and gallant enough. Being unhappy with oneself, especially in youth, is quite common. But not everyone who has ever felt unhappy in his or her skin identifies as "non-binary" -- not even when born in the 21st century. Identify with Brienne all you like. We can relate to her too. Stop trying to pull rank on us. Seems to me that you are being quite rude, and should apologize. Regardless of Brienne's psychological reasons for "almost" slipping up, the reason she corrects herself, is because, in her opinion, "son" would not be the truth. Sounds to me like her father was heartbroken by the loss of his son, and Brienne somehow ended up, from a very early age, trying to be the son he had lost. Brienne identifies as a woman, because, in her opinion, that IS the truth. Maybe not a "fitting" woman, in her opinion, but a woman nonetheless. Why the rudeness, then? People only wanted to discuss Brienne. You are the only one trying to make yourself the center of the conversation. Of course she is "gender non-conforming" to at least some extent. As are the sort of girls that used to be called "tomboys". The vast majority of people who are to some extent "gender nonconforming" do not identify as non-binary.

I think GRRM will play the "treacherous prophesy" game, Macbeth style, and not the false-prophesy game.

He did not say the "not by force" part. Only the "by guile" part. He's holding back, I guess. Not saying everything he knows. "Guile" in this case is a euphemism for sorcery, and some of those friends in the Reach are sorcerers.

@Hippocras - The Prologue will have something to do with the taking of Storms End, and my guess is that it will involve blood sorcery. Which bodes ill for Jeyne Westerling and her theoretical kingsblood baby. It won't necessary take place at Storms End, but neither will it necessarily take place in the Westerlands. People move around, and Sybell no doubt sees herself as ill treated by the Lannisters. JonCon hints at "friends in the Reach" and I think we will find out that some of them are blood sorcerers. - Why would Dany be imprisoned? - Damphair's rebellion on the Iron Islands was already dealt with, in flashback, in THE FORSAKEN sample chapter. It does not need to be dealt with again. Look forward, not backward. I would never call GRRM an efficient writer. But he is not THAT inefficient. He will not, god willing, waste an entire chapter telling us something we already know, and not advancing the story an inch. - There will be no Brienne and Jaime at the BWB chapter. GRRM separated us from the Brienne & Jaime povs for a reason. He is planning to surprise us, and therefore means to deprive us of access to their thoughts and plans. We will next see them (not necessarily together) at Kings Landing, and/or at Winterfell and/or at the Vale Tourney. And we won't know what they are up to because we will see them through the eyes of Sansa and/or Cersei and/or Asha/Theon. There will be no ironborn assault at Oldtown, and if there is, Euron certainly won't be with them.

Not guilty by reason of temporary insanity, maybe. But that's only an excuse, not a justification. If she could help herself, what she did was wrong. And no good will come from it.

NO!

I would not call Brienne non-binary (or trans). To me, "non-binary" and "androgynous" mean very different things. Brienne sees herself as a woman who, through an accident of nature, is capable of being mistaken for a man. Not only does she regard any such male identification as a mistake, but she does not tend to encourage the mistake. Others see her in the same terms. They might mistake her for a man, but then they say "oh, she's really a woman, my mistake". She is not postmodern, so to her, illusion is one thing, reality is something else, and the difference matters. When Jaime has a vision of Brienne in the underworld, she seems particularly feminine. The implication seems to be that she has a woman's soul. @Lord of Raventree Hall, I'm not trying to dictate how to use the term "non-binary". If you identify as "non-binary" and if "androgynous" is all you mean by it, that is fine. I'm not looking for a fight with you or your mom. For what it is worth, I agree that Brienne is at least somewhat androgynous. But certainly it is true that not all androgynous people identify as non-binary. Nor is it clear that Brienne would choose to identify as non-binary, even if she were born today. It is of course perfectly fine that you identify with Brienne, but I am sure that lots of people who do not identify as non-bindary also can identify with Brienne.

Hard to see what you mean. What you are talking about is Sansa doing (1) girly-girl things; (2) on LF's orders; and (3) it's pretty darned innocent. Yes, Sansa imagines she is being a clever boots. But not for this. What makes her a clever boots, in her mind, is her scheme to surround Sweetrobin with Winged Knights. Now I'm not saying this is a bad idea. But it is still head-in-the-clouds Sansa doing head-in-the-clouds Sansa things. Another clever thing she might be doing is throwing herself into her "Alayne" role, thereby hiding her true thoughts, not only from LF, but also from the reader. Still, that would be very Sansa of her. LF no doubt imagines he is two steps ahead of her. He plans to manipulate the results of the tourney so that all the winners are his catspaws. Still, some mystery knight might slip through.

I apologize for hijacking your thread. I have no desire to start any threads at the moment. But can certainly agree to give it a rest for at least a month. I did try to be a good sport and engage with your ideas. But my brain was unable to connect. I guess I am just not mystical enough. For me, the fun of fiction involves suspension of disbelief. And, for me at least, suspension of disbelief involves taking things more or less literally. I have noticed character parallels in the past, sometimes involving the re-use of themes in a historical context, such as Bonifer/Aemon; Rhaelle/Naerys; Aegon4/Aerys; sometimes in a modern context, such as Brienne/Sandor; Pod Payne/Ned Dayne. But my literal mind looks for the literal implication of these parallels. Are there any literal implications of your Lemore/Stoneheart symbolism theory? Would you venture to make any predictions, as to future volumes, based on them?