JGP

I asked because I'm actually interested. I'll go take a look.

You must run in some low circles if this shit actually works on anyone.

I've seen one of the D's brag about how S6 is the best scripted season yet, so YYMV...

Unpack that. I mean, I gave this episode a 5 and that was mostly due to the production value and directing. So, if you're excluding those, what exactly do you think is good about this episode?

No, because your grammar and diction are silly. And nice try with the smoke grenades again hahaha...

Hahaha...

Gave it a 5, mostly due to production values. It lost points on: -dialogue remaining the same level and the last few Eps, meaning-- dogshit -nonsensical characterization: the story is no longer driven by our dramatis personae [3/4s of them aren't even recogniable anymore] it's all about the plot -poorly planned and executed battles due to the above This show has now leaped to the top of the pile of those I just like to watch to make fun of.

Mmn... commercial success isn't indicative of quality. Personally, I thought the first four seasons were generally quite good as adaptations-- but five and six have left much to be desired. The perfect example being, when faced by Lyanna Mormont, Jon and Sansa standing around as stupefied decoration whilst Davos saves the moment, saying, essentially, what Jon himself has been saying since he encountered the WWs. So hardly mentioning Jon's actual experience in the matter, why wouldn't he have said it? Because of a precocious child? Pfft. It just doesn't compute and isn't consistent, thus it's bad writing. Pedigree may matter when arguing from your perspective, but it doesn't change the fact that it's your perspective. Myself, I've found the overall plot this season to be relatively nonsensical. The dialogue, while having it's moments, I deem sub par and pales in comparison to the dialogue of the first three seasons. The characters acting, in some cases is good and otherwise quite less so, but I'd submit that's due to poor scripting. And Insofar as the 'majority of major moments,' well... if not bad, then quite a few fell short of the opportunity to really shine-- seasons' five ad six there, mind. The highest rating I've given so far this season is a six. This particular episode... four.

There's usually some redeeming qualities to any particular episode, in S6, but even the Hound and Mormont couldn't save the awful writing this episode. I gave it a 4, if only because of Sandor and Lyanna. --- Int. DnD's Office. Day. Camera pans the room. The floor is pristine, no crumpled paper anywhere. The whiteboard is clean. Pause on DnD and Cogman, they're having a casual conversation but the shadows have come to dance, my lord... their shadows are all sucking each others dicks. Zoom past to underneath a massive desk. Chins resting on forearms: Arya: [chews her lip] Well... Lots of people can't write. Hound: [pause] ...Lots of cunts.

Oh, well... when you put it like that, it really is a good push for major player looming to factor large toward the end game. Come on... hahaha [coughs] Sorry, I know I'm derailing and sarcasm doesn't help, but that emboldens the point. That said, I'll drop it and am willing to give the benefit of the doubt. It's not like I have a choice, I have to at this point. Le sigh.

Wow, hey Maia. Long time no type. Thing for me is this: I brought up the vision and my former interpretation of it as Theon as an example. At the time, the imagery worked. Tied to a prow, grey lips smiling sadly-- Greyjoy. And again, at the time [ACoK] the only Greyjoys of any textual significance were Balon, Asha, The Damphair and Theon and of the four I surmised it was Theon. The only thing that didn't fit was, as you say, dread, but once more, at that time-- I don't think anyone could've predicted Theon's arc as with a few bad decisions and foolish pride he was looking to turn quite bad. So I look at it this way. By the time ACoK was published, Martin knew he was shooting for five books at the time? I mean, he knew the trilogy was out by that point, right, but he hadn't proposed making it a seven book series yet, not that I've heard anyway. So, by the time ACoK was published I was under the impression of the sequence being: AGoT, ACoK, ASoS, ADwD, TWoW et fini. At this point, what you say in your second paragraph makes sense, of course, but I'm not sure it changes my overall opinion to a large extent. Some of the details, sure, but say you're completely right and Martin had decided on this arc of Euron's as he was drafting ACoK. Yet no progression for Euron in ASoS even? I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan and I love the world, the characters, the writing. And working on my own novel, I'm well aware how easily things can grow beyond one's control when you've created a large world that your story inhabits. There's something that pulls on you, as a writer, when that portion of the map that hasn't yet been enveloped into the story beckons, a story whose scope would certainly affect everyone and everywhere to some extent or another. But, hard decisions are also a part of writing. And Martin is a slow writer, no foul in that at all-- but Martin himself has stated on several occasions how he doesn't like working from outlines, and as a fan who would love to see this story completed, I have to say that it's troubling. When an author who meant to write three, turned it into five with a gap, then removed the gap and increased the novel count to seven... when that author hasn't in any large way touched upon an allegedly major arc until book six? Hmn... And now that we're heading toward what's looking more like eight books instead of seven, I'm curious about why, if Euron has always been the design [for a writer who likes to craft organically, no outlines] why he hasn't cut Euron's arc by this point. A lot of it really doesn't make any sense, anyway I look at it. So when I complain about filler, and bloat, it's because it's an apparent and continuous issue. And instead of seeing Martin do anything about it, he's actually continuing with it despite all these other, newer distractions as well [ HBO, etc] I mean, by the sound of it the Meereenese Knot won't even be resolved until the last third of TWoW... and I'm somehow to believe that Dany and company can join the main plot, and all else besides [including our new big bad] will be dealt with in one more book? It'll be eight books more like, and god forbid it might even be nine. Martin has the talent sure, but... I just don't know. My faith is getting thin.

Honestly, this vision you guys keep referring to, from ACoK... at the time when I read it I figured it was figurative for Theon and what he was eventually about-- the sacking of Winterfell, falling prey to Reek [becoming Reek] etc etc. Of course it makes retroactive sense now that is was actually Euron, but that's as much a post rationalization as my thinking it was Theon. It doesn't prop up anyone's argument otherwise, and despite what some think, none of those visions are obviously about Euron hahaha... Give me a break.

Meh. None of that actually helps out your line of argumentation, LR, and I don't feel like arguing about it anyway. This really feels like an extension of the argument in the Monkey's Growing thread regarding the overwriting of the Gap, so... I'm totally fine with you having your opinion here.

"Bloat would be Brienne's first 4 chapters. Euron's poised to become the Final Boss before the White Walkers maybe even the Final Boss if he becomes a second Night's King. Bloat wouldn't change the story if you take it out. Taking Euron out seems like it'll completely change the endgame" Of course it would change the endgame, because he's been written into the endgame. Which doesn't change my point, at all. It exemplifies it, actually. I mean, absent textual evidence, beyond --the advent of Euron could've been foreshadowed by this dream or that vision-- Euron's relevance was introduced in Feast and Dance, so, filler and bloat equals more filler and bloat, more for Martin to factor in/resolve, more writing, less and less chance of seven rather than eight books, etc etc.

You're right, but only insofar as the filler having graduated to full on bloat. My opinion of course, but there it is.

While your argument here isn't incorrect per se, for myself I don't think any of the additional complications added throughout AFfC and ADwD were necessary. That Martin is continuing them is a given, he had to after all after all once he'd chosen to weave them-- but that in itself doesn't suddenly justify their inclusion or take away from those who'd agree with my perspective. Westeros was already in political turmoil, there was lots of gaming afoot and conflict aplenty. It's a matter of preference, sure. My preference was let's get on with it, eh... But now I've had to resign myself to the untold pages required to resolve all these new tensions and impending conflicts, alongside all those preexisting-- hence my opinion being unlikely to change even if Winds seems to support what I considered bloat and filler in Feast and Dance, as I consider them a further continuation of such and not an answer to. If you follow.

" ...perhaps we can now also bury the AFfC/ADwD bashing." I feel a bit of trepidation even commenting on this cause Varys's post are so fucking long, hahaha... but no, one chapter won't alleviate the discontent I had with those two books. I'll wait until I've read the entire book before I'll revise that judgement.

Winging it from memory here, but that Valyrian armor sounds similar in description to the armor Jon dreamed he was wearing when wielding the sword of fire, no?

It's a standalone. They all are, pretty much, excepting the duology and trilogy. So giver. And, unlike many, I personally wouldn't rank Last Light amongst the lower tiered of his forays. I quite liked it.

Preserving an ineffable something, words chasing words-- it's like, you want to cast this or that moment in amber while not noticing that such constraint is akin to taking a garrote to momentum. This is not to say that there aren't times for it, but one has to be discerning in those choices. I used to suffer from the same affliction myself with my own writing, until a good friend in my writing group helped me work my way out of it. It's a definite problem, writing so much about what's happening that nothing actually happens.

I've become a kinder gentler over the years and even I want to box this guy's ears in. Referring to archaic diction as some kind of elevated prose and/or vocabulary has got to be one of the more ridiculous things things I've read in this back and forth so far [besides two chapters of the writing in question] Here's some constructive criticism, Richard: you're stuck in the writing [whether you think it's good or most inthread think it's bad is actually irrelevant] story is what you need to master first, artful prose after. If your story doesn't hook me, and it didn't, I'm not sticking around. I think that would go for most readers, and most writers.

Oh, I don't know. I'm actually finding the post rating/reputation thing very fascinating on a socio-psychological level. Granted, people who care about it shouldn't be made to feel bad for doing so; we're all entitled to our feelings, yet... Yet. We, each of us, deal with silent judgement day in, day out. Is the new feature really so much different than those other interactions in real life? It's just another reality check. I know it's a fantasy board, but come on guys. None of us live in one. Honestly, I don't mind anything that helps this place, and it's denizens, become a little more real. I mean, I for one don't come here to escape. That's what books are for.