Is meereen a draft before westeros?

[LordStoneheart]

This. It's almost like she's thinking that it's ok if she screws up because Westeros is more important and these people aren't people in a sense.

Something wrong with that?

[Starkfaithful85]

I know jon gets betrayed by his men but it always suprises me to see so many people underestimate how bold and visionary he was in dealing with the white walker problem...he does screw up by attempting to march on ramsay and trusting marsh, but letting the wildlings in to not only decrease the size of the WW army but also increase the size of the NW by a massive amount...have respect for jon...dany is idealistic who will not do what is necessary for the good of her people...when the harpies start killing people she ends up pulling back her own unsullied and putting the freedmen who are loyal to her within the city in harm's way...dany has a lot to learn about making difficult choices

[Sansa_Stark]

Something wrong with that?

How is something not wrong with that?

These are people's lives and she thinks its okay to screw ups ruling them by vals logic

[Valandui]

Something wrong with that?

Yeah, I'd say playing a game with people's lives so you can have a trial kingdom is severely messed up.

[Nictarion]

So if she left Meereen like she did Astapor she would be criticized for that. And if she stays and rules the best she can, she's playing a game? She really cant win with some people.

[Sansa_Stark]

So if she left Meereen like she did Astapor she would be criticized for that. And if she stays and rules the best she can, she's playing a game? She really cant win with some people.

No she can win.

She just has to stop doing terrible things.

Its not very hard.

[Nictarion]

No she can win.

She just has to stop doing terrible things.

Its not very hard.

Edit

[Nictarion]

No she can win.

She just has to stop doing terrible things.

Its not very hard.

So you want her to either be a Mary Sue, or join the silent sisters or something?

[Sansa_Stark]

So you want her to either be a Mary Sue, or join the silent sisters or something?

The latter would probably have been for the best.

Or she could have taken Jorah's offer at the end of AGOT.

Just sell your eggs and go east.

[Nictarion]

The latter would probably have been for the best.

Or she could have taken Jorah's offer at the end of AGOT.

Just sell your eggs and go east.

So basically you don't want Dany as a character all together.

[Sansa_Stark]

So basically you don't want Dany as a character all together.

Basically.

Her storyline is godawful is so many ways.

[Arya kiddin']

Basically.

Her storyline is godawful is so many ways.

This agreement alone shows how biased you are about the character, and so you can never argue about her in a logical impartial way. Your hate for the character will always cloud your arguments and judgement. I seriously don't know why Dany and Cat are the two most misunderstood characters on this forum. I believe it is because they're the best written ones. :)

[Nictarion]

Basically.

Her storyline is godawful is so many ways.

I definitely feel sorry for you, that you can't appreciate one of the main characters, who is one of the best written characters imo. But each their own.

[Sansa_Stark]

This agreement alone shows how biased you are about the character, and so you can never argue about her in a logical impartial way. Your hate for the character will always cloud your arguments and judgement. I seriously don't know why Dany and Cat are the two most misunderstood characters on this forum. I believe it is because they're the best written ones. :)

My arguments are generally pretty good. Don't hate.

I'm going to argue that apologists are even more clouded and biased than haters because they love said character and can never argue for them in a logical impartial way.

Its like how Sansa apologists like to pretend that she didn't have some role in her father's death and just say "BUT NED KILLED NED" and argue for this x345453 times in a row.

If there is any flaw in my logic/arguments point them out and I'll try to reason or concede. But I actually do try to look at things logically.

ps dany is extremely polarizing as hell

lots of flaws that aren't typical for someone who is being presented as a heroine

crass amounts of arrogance, stupidity, unbending stubborness, cruel and unusal punishments, and is pretty narrow minded

[MasterJack]

After Westeros she will return to Essos to finish what she started. Because she cant end up on westeros throne if Essos is still burning because of her. It is like an ending when the vilain wins (and she isnt really a vilain, imo) + some vision might be interpreted as her return.

(just some copy paste of an old post)

Dany prophecy of dauther and death and dont seperate the end into different sentence;

A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door.¹ Behind a silver horse the blood corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged.²A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.³Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.⁴Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her food, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them.⁵

It could be interpretted;
1-Dany returns where she feel home(Essos), weakened after the war(little girl)
2-Even still she is weakened, she leaves westeros will being on the winning side. (Dothraki way, dragging the foe's body being your horse)
3-Jaime/Tyrion(the white Lion) is with her in her trip to Vaes Dotrak in the Dothraki Sea(or he follow her)
4-Dany takes command of the Dothraki, the old crones approve her
5-Dany finally stop Slavery in Essos. (And I assume it will take years, some forshadowing with Olive Trees predicted some 21year if i remember)

[Arya kiddin']

My arguments are generally pretty good. Don't hate.

I'm going to argue that apologists are even more clouded and biased than haters because they love said character and can never argue for them in a logical impartial way.

Its like how Sansa apologists like to pretend that she didn't have some role in her father's death and just say "BUT NED KILLED NED" and argue for this x345453 times in a row.

If there is any flaw in my logic/arguments point them out and I'll try to reason or concede. But I actually do try to look at things logically.

ps dany is extremely polarizing as hell

lots of flaws that aren't typical for someone who is being presented as a heroine

crass amounts of arrogance, stupidity, unbending stubborness, cruel and unusal punishments, and is pretty narrow minded

I as a rule don't hate.

Neither am I a deluded Cat/Sansa/Dany fan who can't allow a character any flaws. Dany has plenty of character flaws, she has made plenty of mistakes, but saving MMD isn't one. Despite being presented with compelling arguments that the Lhazareen were going to be enslaved anyway, you continue to bring up the "indirect involvement" argument, which really has no merits. It's fine if your reasons to flame a character are logical, but doing this for the sake of doing this is not sensible is it?

[Sansa_Stark]

I as a rule don't hate.

Neither am I a deluded Cat/Sansa/Dany fan who can't allow a character any flaws. Dany has plenty of character flaws, she has made plenty of mistakes, but saving MMD isn't one. Despite being presented with compelling arguments that the Lhazareen were going to be enslaved anyway, you continue to bring up the "indirect involvement" argument, which really has no merits. It's fine if your reasons to flame a character are logical, but doing this for the sake of doing this is not sensible is it?

You cannot prove that Drogo would have attacked that specific village unless he had Dany to goad him on.

Yes, he would enslave the Lhazareen regardless, but he attacked that specific village at that time BECAUSE Dany. The "It would have happened anyways" is the worst logic on this board.

And no, where do you think Drogo got the idea to give his son the "iron chair" from?

Therefore, she did have some influence on his decisions.

You didn't even address these points last topic.

[Ally Cat of the canals]

Personally my opinion of what Dany has been up to is she forgot who and what the targs and herself are. Instead of carrying on with her dragons freeing the slaves and making her way home she got tired of all the fighting and death. So she thought she could stay in Meeren all the people there would love her and then she would leave the place in a lot better shape than when she arrived. Unfortunately they are the dreams of a young girl. When you rule we have learned from this series not all people will love you even if you do everything for them. Dany also removed Jorah who always gave her good advise, when Selmy tries to give her advise she isn't interested in hearing it. She is a young girl with her head filled with ideas of love and the fact that she wants everyone to like her. This all leads to her no longer being able to bare the weight of her responsibilities and running away like a normal girl of her age would do but not a Queen. However, when she is on her own vulnerable she finally wakes up to the fact that she has made mistakes, she is a dragon and Meeren isn't her home. The people of Meeren will never love her she doesn't belong there. She admits her mistakes she should have punished Jorah but kept him close because he did love her and he knew what she didn't want to admit. Dany has reconnected with her true self and knows what needs to be done. Meeren will never work out for her however she can remove the old families who have worked against her and still want slaves. She can move on bringing more people to her cause of freeing slaves on her journey to the 7 kingdoms. She also has learnt a valuable lesson when she finally reaches home not everyone will like her. Instead of trying to gain approval she needs to do what's best for the realm. She also needs to remember who her true enemy is and who she is meant to be fighting.

On the opposite side of the coin is Jon. He choose to do what is best for the realm by letting the wildings move behind the wall however, he didn't expect or want anyone to like him. By isolating himself to the point where he made mistakes and refused to bend similar to Stannis. Just because your cause is right doesn't mean people will support you. Unfortunately it is a game of thrones in this case Jon didn't do anything to please his men and as a result of his action and people feeling he no longer cared about the NW a few rose up against him.

I think it is easy to judge both Dany and Jon harshly because they are floored characters. But that is what makes them human. They both are going on a spiritual and physical journey admittedly Dany's has been more sluggish in parts. I'm 27 and I couldn't imagine having the pressure of responsibility that both these teenagers are carrying, personally I would have flown off on a dragon long before now.

[Arya kiddin']

You cannot prove that Drogo would have attacked that specific village unless he had Dany to goad him on.

Yes, he would enslave the Dothraki regardless, but he attacked that specific village at that time BECAUSE Dany. The "It would have happened anyways" is the worst logic on this board.

No I can't. And that's the point. We don't have the other scenario, what would've happened if Drogo would not have been urged to win the iron throne.

And no, where do you think Drogo got the idea to give his son the "iron chair" from?

It was the after the wineseller tried to kill his wife. Of course Dany was the one to point the idea in his mind, and why not? If she can press claim to the throne why wouldn't she, after all his brother lived his entire life thinking of the throne. How could've she known that MMD will betray her trust?

You didn't even address these points last topic.

The obvious flaming? Those are your opinions, not facts. Your opinions on what you perceive of a character is not up for discussion. You are definitely allowerd to hold them, I won't dispute them.

[Dicer]

I think Dany was rather blasé about slavery given that she grew up in Essos. So when she urged Drogo to conquer the 7K for her, she did not really think about the consequences. It was not until Lhazar, that she was actually confronted with the brutality of the Dothraki and the evil of slavery. Which was one of the factors that motivated her to stay and fight in Meereen. So it was not just a draft or a practice ruling. She had valid reasons for staying on. She may not have liked the place and it's people but she wanted to reform. She did not stay for selfish reasons. I thought her motives were good.

The problem was that she made some big mistakes. She was a foreign power occupying a foreign country and she immediately made enemies of half the city by ordering crucifixions and mass killings. She dithered between giving in and not giving in and her passivity emboldened her enemies. She could deal with armies, but insurgents in the city proved to be a harder foe. She destroyed the city's economy without first figuring out a way to keep it's citizens happy with jobs, food and security. Her sense of justice was often biased and skewed by her emotions.

I thought she did end up learning some valuable lessons. She did manage to secure peace at the end through negotiations and diplomacy. But at the end of her ADwD arc she was back to being the Dragon that does not sow. So I am not sure in what manner she will rule Westeros if she gets to sit on the IT. My personal opinion is that her experiences in Mereen will make her a better ruler. She won't make the same mistakes twice. I don't expect her to be as passive as she was in Mereen. I expect to see a more decisive Dany.

As for MMD and the Lhazareen, I would say that she maybe held a degree of blame for what happened to the Lamb people. But very little. I think Drogo would have done it anyway. That's the Dothraki way of life. That's how they earn their living by selling slaves and they have raided the Lamb people many times before. Maybe Drogo increased his attack on more villages to make more money for his Westeros campaign. We don't know. But Dany is understandably conflicted after she sees what happens to the Lamb people and is dismayed that the slaves would be used to pay for the Westeros campaign. .