Is meereen a draft before westeros?

[joluoto]

Two things:

1) Yes, it's supposed to be a learning experience for Dany

2) It's supposed to shift Dany's personality from the Mhysa who want to protect all her children and make the World a better place, to the Targaryen Dragon Queen of Fire and Blood she need to be to conquer Westeros.

[Nictarion]

I feel like bigotry played a role in there somewhere. I may just be biased though, since there is so many in defense of Marsh threads.

But yeah Jon made some mistakes too.

I don't agree with what Marsh did, but I understand it.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I didn't know the two were supposed to be mutually exclusive.

They aren't. The problem for Dany: thinking needs education, knowledge, critical thinking, reevaluating facts and a clear head. None of which she has/had shown.

[Sansa_Stark]

They aren't. The problem for Dany: thinking needs education, knowledge, critical thinking, reevaluating facts and a clear head. None of which she has/had shown.

Well if she looks back she is lost.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well if she looks back she is lost.

And this statement describes her unfitness to rule (or actually do anything) perfectly.

[Sansa_Stark]

And this statement describes her unfitness to rule (or actually do anything) perfectly.

Even wipe her own ass?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Even wipe her own ass?

Well, if she had integrated that statement into her life before learning to wipe it properly, she would still leave marks in her undergarments. Fortunately she only adopted it during her teens.

[The Merry Other]

Meereen is just a long vacation for Dany while waiting for her dragons to grow big enough for the main show in Westeros

[Welease Woger]

Daenerys decided to stay in Meereen for several reasons, one of them was to learn how to govern. But she also stayed because she needed some time in order to let her dragons grow enough for her be able to mount one of them and because she had concerns that her freedmen would starve to death following her if she decided to proceed to the free cities.

Unfortunately she failed on recovering Meereen's economy after her ban on slavery (actually she didn't have time to do anything about it, so her mistake probably was outlawing slavery immediately, rather than gradually) and she made the millitary mistake of sparing the elite of Yunkai. But her government was not catastrophic, she managed to negotiate the peace both within Meereen and with her Yunkaish enemies, but several events that she could not antecipate, like Drogon's appearance in Raznak's Pit, compromised her efforts.

As for Westeros, she is not Aerys, Joffrey or Cersei, thus she hardly would be the worst monarch that the Seven Kingdoms had during the events of ASoI&F.

[CassBlackfyre]

I believe that they were the most tedious an boring parts of the entire series so far

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

I don't agree with what Marsh did, but I understand it.

I seem to always be in a concured (I made that word up) state with you.

[Fire Eater]

Yeah, he did such a great job. It's not like his own men turned on him cause he was fucking up so bad, oh wait....

You mean like how the Shavepate tried to poison Dany? Jon's mistake was believing that all the members of the NW would just swallow what he gave them because they were his subordinates, and underestimating what Marsh was capable of.

Well if she looks back she is lost.

She tells herself this as a way of looking forward. These are the thoughts of scared girl.

After Meereen, we see a new Dany who has taken in "dragons plant no trees." She has decided to stop bending over backwards to protect innocents and using dragonpower to achieve her personal goals.

[jentario]

So, what you are saying is Dany is doing a "beginners course?" After that, she will be strong, stern and steadfast???? Not buying it. Screw her. Turn your faith to Jon.

P.S. I'm extremely shit faced right now. Please excuse my blatant basis. But ive grown tired of calling a "spade a spade." Be it, a fictional character or in real life.....yes, ive got real life shit going on. Dany is the stupid woman, that you put stock in. A woman, you can and should hold in high regard....only to have your heart torn out. She will, only let you down in the end. A woman who has all the potential in the world.....but will never put her bullshit behind her.

Yes.....im an ass right now.

Because Jon ended up being such a good ruler in ADWD... (Yes, that was sarcasm).

[jentario]

You mean like how the Shavepate tried to poison Dany? Jon's mistake was believing that all the members of the NW would just swallow what he gave them because they were his subordinates, and underestimating what Marsh was capable of.

True, and on top of that there's the fact he was keen of showing the realm how much he supports Stannis without even one word to the Boltons, even though Stannis had a very very small chance of winning (before Jon interfered at least). He was trying to create justice outside his realm of control (by sending Mance to his sister and marrying Alys to the Magnar) as if he WAS the lord of Winterfell (even though he already made that choice) and was outright choosing sides in the war south of the Wall- which left Marsh and his buddies no choice when the Pink Letter came. It was either follow Jon and have open war with the south, which likely marks the end of the Night's Watch, or oppose him and dethrone him in order to renew talks with the Boltons.

[C0bR]

1) "Abolish" slavery

2) Install "laboratory rats"

3) ???

4) Profit

[Fire Eater]

which left Marsh and his buddies no choice when the Pink Letter came. It was either follow Jon and have open war with the south, which likely marks the end of the Night's Watch, or oppose him and dethrone him in order to renew talks with the Boltons.

But Marsh didn't execute Jon for desertion, but stabbed him in the form of assassination, which is pointed to as premeditated. Jon clearly states he was only going south himself not asking any of his NW brothers to follow him, and Marsh could have sent a letter saying Jon was a deserter and the NW separates itself from him. I don't think the Boltons have the power to end the NW, and even if they tried it would be a bloody business when they could simply just remove Jon and his supporters and replace him with a puppet LC.

I do agree that Jon went beyond the scope of his powers, and should have prepared for if Stannis lost. I don't think Jon announced he picked Stannis to the realm, given the letter he sent to the Lannisters saying that the NW wasn't taking sides, and he also didn't send men to fight alongside Stannis. He made sure not to make it look like he allied with Stannis up until he made the mistake of going along with Mel's plot to infiltrate WF.

[jentario]

But Marsh didn't execute Jon for desertion, but stabbed him in the form of assassination, which is pointed to as premeditated. Jon clearly states he was only going south himself not asking any of his NW brothers to follow him, and Marsh could have sent a letter saying Jon was a deserter and the NW separates itself from him. I don't think the Boltons have the power to end the NW, and even if they tried it would be a bloody business when they could simply just remove Jon and his supporters and replace him with a puppet LC.

I do agree that Jon went beyond the scope of his powers, and should have prepared for if Stannis lost. I don't think Jon announced he picked Stannis to the realm, given the letter he sent to the Lannisters saying that the NW wasn't taking sides, and he also didn't send men to fight alongside Stannis. He made sure not to make it look like he allied with Stannis up until he made the mistake of going along with Mel's plot to infiltrate WF.

I don't think Marsh and co gave much thought to their actions, they don't really make sense... The chances they'll survive the shitstorm that will certainly hit the Wall after Jon's assassination and the open battle between wildlings and NW (after Wun Wun killed Set Patrek) are small. As you said, there were better alternatives, but I don't think they cared, they just acted "for the Watch".

Also, Jon's paper shield lost substance when he sent Mance to steel away Ramsay's wife. He struggled to send the letter, and was only convinced after thorough explanations from Sam and Aemon why he HAS to do it. When Sam and Aemon went away, there was no one there to advise him to get real and see that Stannis has the same chances of winning as Robb Stark (the chances improved, but they were far from bright initially).

[joluoto]

I don't think Marsh and co gave much thought to their actions, they don't really make sense... The chances they'll survive the shitstorm that will certainly hit the Wall after Jon's assassination and the open battle between wildlings and NW (after Wun Wun killed Set Patrek) are small. As you said, there were better alternatives, but I don't think they cared, they just acted "for the Watch".

Also, Jon's paper shield lost substance when he sent Mance to steel away Ramsay's wife. He struggled to send the letter, and was only convinced after thorough explanations from Sam and Aemon why he HAS to do it. When Sam and Aemon went away, there was no one there to advise him to get real and see that Stannis has the same chances of winning as Robb Stark (the chances improved, but they were far from bright initially).

I have to agree, even if there was a assassination plot, this was not it coming into fruition. This was a panic move. Bowen Marsh is a coward, if he want to kill someone he'd use poison or something else that doesn't leave many traces. The attack on Jon was against Bowen's character and imply he and the other members of the Watch paniced because of the Pink Letter, and they think Ramsay is on the way with an army.

[The Traveler]

As much as I love Dany,I am beginning to think that she isn't a ruler but a conquerer. I had had hope until her last chapter in DoD but that chapter worried me for her state of mind.

I, also, was shocked how she didn't seem tocare about what would have happen to meereen and her "children". She does worry, though, about Daario but not a single thought about groleo who did get killed.

I know some people think that's just inherently wrong, to use a region as a "practice drive" but how many rulers do you think would benefit from that? Probably all.

I believe a lot of rulers would indeed love to have a free city as a sandbox for trying stuff before having to rule Westeros. What bothers me is how she sees herself and loves to be seen as the savior of meereen, breaker of chains, etc.

I'd say the best thing she can take with her is knowing that ruling is a bitch, so she must be one too. :)

I think she already is quite the bitch, what she needs is to admit it.

Two things:

1) Yes, it's supposed to be a learning experience for Dany

2) It's supposed to shift Dany's personality from the Mhysa who want to protect all her children and make the World a better place, to the Targaryen Dragon Queen of Fire and Blood she need to be to conquer Westeros.

Well if it's actually all about a teen who wants to rule, and not about making the world a better place, Daenerys is the last thing that westeros needs.

Even Robert (probably the least popular king among the readers) started the rebellion to make the world a better place and not for the simple purpose of sitting his ass on the iron throne.

After Meereen, we see a new Dany who has taken in "dragons plant no trees." She has decided to stop bending over backwards to protect innocents and using dragonpower to achieve her personal goals.

Again, a whole continent to serve one teen's personal goals. Also, I don't think she would stop caring about the innocent, she'll just stop pretending.

1) "Abolish" slavery

2) Install "laboratory rats"

3) ???

4) Profit

Note to self: If step 3) goes wrong, try yelling out loud "I am the blood of the dragon". If it fails, yell louder

[Rhymes with Weak]

It's kinda sad that the entire existence of Slaver's Bay up to this point has been to teach Dany life lessons. Time will tell if she actually learned anything.