Dany's mistakes

[Lummel]

I don't know if 'mistakes' is a terribly helpful lens to look at Daenerys' actions in Meereen. In a sense if there is a 'mistake' it is that she can't escape the consequences of her earlier actions - until the end of her arc in ADWD when she just flies away from them.

It is interesting to read through and see quite how trapped she is, really as a consequence of following Jorah's advice to go to Astapor to get an army. Each step she takes from then on leads to the situation we see in Meereen.

She clearly has two problems - the lack of sense of how to get from where she is to the Iron Throne and the lack of decent advisers to fill in this deficiency. I suspect this will change in TWOW partly because Tyrion is a universal catalyst and stirs things up, introduces new people (often with grim results) to each other where ever he goes and partly because Daenerys at the close of ADWD seems to have reached a new balance in her desire to be the Mother figure to the needy and downtrodden and to be Blood and Fire - a dragon.

If we go through the steps she takes its quickly clear that she is on the back foot from the end of Daenerys I ADWD and reacting, generally too quickly, to situations put to her by people with their own agendas. Notice that she is often interrupted and pushed into making a decision. Just as Jon in ADWD only rarely gets to eat a meal without interruption, Daenerys is woken up during the night and expected to give an answer. She's is as effectively exploited by the Shavepate in ADWD as Tyrion is by Varys in ACOK.

The peace is a fantastic piece of naivety. Perhaps Yunkai is honest about wanting a peace. Unfortunately for Doves Yunkai isn't paying for the war. Volontis and Qarth are, and they have no interest in peace until Meereen is turned back into a slave producing city. So peace in fact is potentially another missed opportunity to deal with an enemy before their reinforcements arrive.

That she didn't leave Meereen is a nice criticism. How is she going to leave Meereen? The Thirteen ships that she is offered wouldn't be enough to transport her Unsullied. From the moment she takes her army of Unsullied she was trapped in Slavers Bay because she doesn't have the ships to leave the area and Slavers Bay doesn't have the trees to build ships because it has run down its environment in favour of living off the slave trade. The whole debacle is of itself the typical dead end of Jorah's fantasies. Luckily GRRM is kind, loving and attentive to his characters and is sending many ships to the region...

[RK Rajagopal]

That she didn't leave Meereen is a nice criticism. How is she going to leave Meereen? The Thirteen ships that she is offered wouldn't be enough to transport her Unsullied. From the moment she takes her army of Unsullied she was trapped in Slavers Bay because she doesn't have the ships to leave the area and Slavers Bay doesn't have the trees to build ships because it has run down its environment in favour of living off the slave trade. The whole debacle is of itself the typical dead end of Jorah's fantasies. Luckily GRRM is kind, loving and attentive to his characters and is sending many ships to the region...

I disagree. If she wanted to leave earlier with her army, she could have. She only stayed as the people she had freed would be enslaved again - and possibly consign Meereen to an Astapor-like fate. If suppose she was ready to abandon her people and leave Meereen and thought that she doesn't have enough boats to transport her army, she could have bargained for more boats. This is far cheaper than fighting a war - I doubt the Volantenes, Yunkish or Qartheen would object. This was never in her agenda - she wanted to stay and "heal" Meereen. As an aside, I think that was the right thing to do. But coming to your point, no - I think she could have found a way to leave Meereen, if she was ready to abandon her people.

[Lummel]

I disagree. If she wanted to leave earlier with her army, she could have. She only stayed as the people she had freed would be enslaved again - and possibly consign Meereen to an Astapor-like fate. If suppose she was ready to abandon her people and leave Meereen and thought that she doesn't have enough boats to transport her army, she could have bargained for more boats. This is far cheaper than fighting a war - I doubt the Volantenes, Yunkish or Qartheen would object. This was never in her agenda - she wanted to stay and "heal" Meereen. As an aside, I think that was the right thing to do. But coming to your point, no - I think she could have found a way to leave Meereen, if she was ready to abandon her people.

Bargaining for more boats is nice. But think on this: why would the Volontenes and Qarthene give enough ships to Daenerys to transport her entire army out of Slavers Bay given the chaos they know that she is capable of causing and the chaos that she intends to cause by warring for the Iron Throne? She has quite clearly demonstrated to them that she is a loose cannon which is why they only offer her thirteen ships in the first place - it is a deliberate move to ensure that where ever she goes she will be militarily weak enough not to be able to threaten the stability of the region.

Of course you are right - she could have left, provided she gives up having an army. It's quite likely she would have ended up having her throat cut later to ensure that she would never get to deploy those dragons either.

[RK Rajagopal]

Bargaining for more boats is nice. But think on this: why would the Volontenes and Qarthene give enough ships to Daenerys to transport her entire army out of Slavers Bay given the chaos they know that she is capable of causing and the chaos that she intends to cause by warring for the Iron Throne? She has quite clearly demonstrated to them that she is a loose cannon which is why they only offer her thirteen ships in the first place - it is a deliberate move to ensure that where ever she goes she will be militarily weak enough not to be able to threaten the stability of the region.

Of course you are right - she could have left, provided she gives up having an army. It's quite likely she would have ended up having her throat cut later to ensure that she would never get to deploy those dragons either.

No. The Volantenes and Qarthenes are angry because she destroyed the Slave trade. If she just goes away and agrees to let the slave trade continue, I doubt they would have any problem with her. Wars are expensive, and Dany has an army, and she has dragons (albeit small). They would be happy to see the back of her, and continue with their livelihood.

[RK Rajagopal]

Bargaining for more boats is nice. But think on this: why would the Volontenes and Qarthene give enough ships to Daenerys to transport her entire army out of Slavers Bay given the chaos they know that she is capable of causing and the chaos that she intends to cause by warring for the Iron Throne? She has quite clearly demonstrated to them that she is a loose cannon which is why they only offer her thirteen ships in the first place - it is a deliberate move to ensure that where ever she goes she will be militarily weak enough not to be able to threaten the stability of the region.

Of course you are right - she could have left, provided she gives up having an army. It's quite likely she would have ended up having her throat cut later to ensure that she would never get to deploy those dragons either.

Also, I really don't think they would start a war with her, just because she is a "loose cannon" and intends to "war for the Iron Throne". They don't care what happens to the Iron Throne

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I cant belive the astapor genocide is being left behind in this thread...

[Nictarion]

Bargaining for more boats is nice. But think on this: why would the Volontenes and Qarthene give enough ships to Daenerys to transport her entire army out of Slavers Bay given the chaos they know that she is capable of causing and the chaos that she intends to cause by warring for the Iron Throne? She has quite clearly demonstrated to them that she is a loose cannon which is why they only offer her thirteen ships in the first place - it is a deliberate move to ensure that where ever she goes she will be militarily weak enough not to be able to threaten the stability of the region.

Of course you are right - she could have left, provided she gives up having an army. It's quite likely she would have ended up having her throat cut later to ensure that she would never get to deploy those dragons either.

The offer was 13 ships because it was one ship from each of the 13 of Qarth. And I'm sure she could make a deal to leave Essos in exchange for ships from pretty much all the free cities (except Braavos) and Slavers Bay, her war on slavery was felt throughout the entire continent.

[Lummel]

Also, I really don't think they would start a war with her, just because she is a "loose cannon" and intends to "war for the Iron Throne". They don't care what happens to the Iron Throne

But they did start a war with her - that is what actually happens in ADWD!

But as you said she doesn't want to leave Meereen because of what happened in Astapor - it is a good example of how she is caught up in the consequences of her earlier actions and can't find a way of, well I suppose, dealing with herself and the implications of the nature of her actions, which gives rise to the tension between being a mother and being a dragon that haunts her through ADWD.

The offer was 13 ships because it was one ship from each of the 13 of Qarth. And I'm sure she could make a deal to leave Essos in exchange for ships from pretty much all the free cities (except Braavos) and Slavers Bay, her war on slavery was felt throughout the entire continent.

Indeed. And would they trust her to leave to keep her nose out of their business and their way of doing things? Thirteen ships is a way of showing that they don't trust her. They want her to depart, but so weakened that she can't be a threat. They were capable, in terms of tonnage at their command, to transport the six or seven thousand that her army and court number to Westeros but they don't offer that, they don't even suggest that they are open to negotiation. The choice offered is between thirteen ships or war.

[RK Rajagopal]

But they did start a war with her - that is what actually happens in ADWD!

But as you said she doesn't want to leave Meereen because of what happened in Astapor - it is a good example of how she is caught up in the consequences of her earlier actions and can't find a way of, well I suppose, dealing with herself and the implications of the nature of her actions, which gives rise to the tension between being a mother and being a dragon that haunts her through ADWD.

They start a war cause she bans slave trade. If she agrees to allow it and return to Westeros, there wouldn't be a war. That's why they offer her the ships. And yes, her mental struggles are very nicely portrayed - I don't think she made a mistake by choosing to stay in Meereen.

[RK Rajagopal]

But they did start a war with her - that is what actually happens in ADWD!

But as you said she doesn't want to leave Meereen because of what happened in Astapor - it is a good example of how she is caught up in the consequences of her earlier actions and can't find a way of, well I suppose, dealing with herself and the implications of the nature of her actions, which gives rise to the tension between being a mother and being a dragon that haunts her through ADWD.

Indeed. And would they trust her to leave to keep her nose out of their business and their way of doing things? Thirteen ships is a way of showing that they don't trust her. They want her to depart, but so weakened that she can't be a threat. They were capable, in terms of tonnage at their command, to transport the six or seven thousand that her army and court number to Westeros but they don't offer that, they don't even suggest that they are open to negotiation. The choice offered is between thirteen ships or war.

I don't remember it being stated in the text that the Qartheen and Volantenes wanted Dany to be weaker. They just wanted her to go away, so that they can resume their livelihoods with the slave trade. Further, it is just the 13 which offered the ships. Had Dany tried negotiating, as Nictorian said above, she could have probably got more ships from the other Qarth factions, Volantis, Yunkai and certain Free cities.

[jentario]

Dany's first and biggest mistake was to let her people follow her and to go on a slave freeing spree without considering what will happen to them next. She stayed in Meereen after seeing what happened to Astapor, and not wanting that to happen again for moral reasons (which are understandable). The rest of her mistakes throughout ADWD spawned from the impossibility of her situation. Meereen is a snake pit full of traitors and personal interests and surrounded by even greater threats. No king or Queen could hold Meereen. Maybe they would last longer than Dany (and maybe not) but a war would have sparked either way. I don't think Dany did decisions as bad as some fans believe she did, they are only that bad in retrospect, but in ASOS they seemed like good decisions.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So you say that all of Dany's mistakes is because she still learning and they are forgivable when Jon's mistakes is because he is a decent human being and that is unforgivable? That is full of :bs:

too many to count...

This.

[Lummel]

I don't remember it being stated in the text that the Qartheen and Volantenes wanted Dany to be weaker. They just wanted her to go away, so that they can resume their livelihoods with the slave trade. Further, it is just the 13 which offered the ships. Had Dany tried negotiating, as Nictorian said above, she could have probably got more ships from the other Qarth factions, Volantis, Yunkai and certain Free cities.

If they wanted Daenerys to go away, just to get out of Slavers Bay, they could have made her an offer that she couldn't have refused, or even suggested that they would negotiate. But they don't. They offer either thirteen ships or war. Accepting thirteen ships will leave her weak (it takes three ships to take the fewer than a hundred Dothraki and their horses, three dragons, Barristan, Belwas and Jorah from Qarth to Astapor) - it is too few to be able to transport the manpower to capture anywhere significant, but barely enough to enable her to get killed trying to win a kingdom.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

too many to count...

you could try elaborating on this to actually contribute tp the discussion.

As you can tell from.my sig i am a Dany fan but for arguments sake i will be extra critical of her in this thread;

One mistake that jumps out at me in particular is that she tries to make decisions that will please everyone. She tries to remain supportive of the Ghiscari ways while also trying to please her Freedmen. This is a mistake. She is effectively allowing her enemy to keep their teeth, what she should have done is given the ultimatum of change your ways or get out of my city. Yes it makes her more foes outside the walls, but it helps create peace inside her city.

Almost contradicting myself here but her inability to compromise. I am talkin largely about her refusal to reopen the fighting pits, which would have been an economic boon to Meereen.

Another mistake is not helping Astapor, who essentially are her only allies in Slavers Bay. There was no way she could have a peace with Yunkai, so she should have joined forces with Astapor.

I may come back to edit this and add more later but thats all i got for now

[RK Rajagopal]

So you say that all of Dany's mistakes is because she still learning and they are forgivable when Jon's mistakes is because he is a decent human being and that is unforgivable? That is full of :bs:

This.

I never said that Jon's mistakes are unforgivable - just that I think Jon wouldn't make a good King. Nor have I said that Dany's mistakes are forgivable. In any case, I don't see how that is relevant in this thread.

For the purpose of discussion, I think it would be helpful to list out the "too many to count" errors Dany has made - I think that is the point of this thread.

[Jory Cassel]

2. Infatuation with Daario: I don't think I need to elaborate here. We're all fed up with her affections for Daario - and he consistently gives her violent advice - such as having another red wedding.

To be fair again, Dany herself later tries to let go of Daario, for her own good. But again, disturbingly towards the end in the Dothraki sea, she tends to be drawn towards Daario again. This may not mean much by itself, but it is just worth noting.

I think you do, in case you did not notice, the quote you supplied is not indicative. If she had applied the proposed RW-scenario, this would be a wholly different matter, of course, but she did not.

IMO her biggest mistake was not disowning/expelling the Masters of Meereen.

[RK Rajagopal]

If they wanted Daenerys to go away, just to get out of Slavers Bay, they could have made her an offer that she couldn't have refused, or even suggested that they would negotiate. But they don't. They offer either thirteen ships or war. Accepting thirteen ships will leave her weak (it takes three ships to take the fewer than a hundred Dothraki and their horses, three dragons, Barristan, Belwas and Jorah from Qarth to Astapor) - it is too few to be able to transport the manpower to capture anywhere significant, but barely enough to enable her to get killed trying to win a kingdom.

The thirteen offers her 13 ships. Had she asked, don't you think all the other factions mentioned previously would offer some ships as well?

Secondly, there was no point of negotiation for more ships - it was clear that , Dany wouldn't leave her freedmen behind.

Thirdly, why should they make "an offer Dany can't refuse"? Why can't Dany ask for "X ships"? The fact that she didn't try shows that she wasn't interested - and that's all that matters. If Dany had tried, she might have gotten ships enough to transport her army, as long as she stays out of Essos and the Slave Trade. If you think she wouldn't get any more ships - fine. But the fact is she didn't try. And I think that is the more important takeaway.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

So you say that all of Dany's mistakes is because she still learning and they are forgivable when Jon's mistakes is because he is a decent human being and that is unforgivable? That is full of :bs:

This.

Exactly her fans act like she is not immune mistakes

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I never said that Jon's mistakes are unforgivable - just that I think Jon wouldn't make a good King. Nor have I said that Dany's mistakes are forgivable. In any case, I don't see how that is relevant in this thread.

For the purpose of discussion, I think it would be helpful to list out the "too many to count" errors Dany has made - I think that is the point of this thread.

Yes you are, your hate thread was just this. Claiming that Jon's actions were unforgivable when here you try to whitewash Dany and her crimes. You might don't want to call them hate threads and whitewash threads but that is what they are.

I will try to make a small list:

1. Radomly mass crucifixion.

2. Torturing the children.

3. Trusting Green Grace and explaining to her her plan.

4. Abandoning Astapor.

5. Her inability to rule justily. Easter egg: the woman who fleed from her home, just like Dany had.

6. Her rule in Meereen.

7. She locks the Dragon away without trying to trained them which had as the result the fact that they become feral.

8. Making Dorne her enemy.

9. Going to Meereen.

10. Being Frey like with the game "I have hostages but I don't know what to do with them" Just like the Freys and Edmure.

11. She stole an army.

12. Her entitlement.

13. The most important for me: She want to bring death and destruction over a land that she calls home and her people.

14. Her denial to learn.

Exactly her fans act like she is not immune mistakes

Agree: They are all, aww she learns how to rule so no matter how many thousands of people she killed, aww her hairs are like silver so no matter how many children she has tortured...

[The Merry Other]

People seem to forget that Dany HAD to stay in Meereen for a while because her dragons were not big enough for war yet. Without dragons her prospects in Westeros were very slim indeed. So Dany really had little choice in the matter