What are the character (NOT plot) consequences of R+L=J?

[complexphoenix]

Welcome to the boards!

I think you're taking a very interesting view on the situation. I think the idea of the 'flawed hero' is a common theme within these stories. Robert, Rhaegar, Dany, Stannis, Jon, Ned... they all do heroic things, but they all have their skeletons in their closet. I think one of GRRM's best assets is the way he can make heroic acts be somewhat tainted. It's also why we have so many discussions on the good vs bad of each of the characters, since the only 'pure' characters seem to be Brienne, the Mountain, and Ramsay.

Brienne and Ramsay are about as close to pure white and black as you'll find in this series, but the Mountain has one redeeming feature in my view - he is loyal to his liege lord. It's his only redeeming feature, but it's something.

[Ygrain]

First off: Robert and Ned had no idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship was consensual. In fact, we the readers who've figured out R+L=J don't know for a fact that it was consensual, because babies can be born from rape as easily as from consensual sex. Because Ned holds Rhaegar no ill will after all these years, I think it was probably consensual and Ned learned that when he found Lyanna at the TOJ, but we don't know it for a fact.

It's not only a remarkable lack of ill will towards Rhaegar - Ned makes a comparison between Robert and Rhaegar in favour of Rhaegar. That pretty much settles it.

So no, I wouldn't say that R+L=J in any way makes Robert and Ned into villains, it just creates - again, assuming R+L was consensual - a story of how poor communication kills. If only Lyanna had just left a note...

Perhaps she did leave a note - to Rickard.

[complexphoenix]

But usually the realization that Ned really hasn't fathered a bastard makes people say "I knew it, he really is purely honorable!" without considering his role in the rebellion, the cruelty to Catelyn of the lie he lived with, and so on. If nothing else, IMO, it makes Ned's "honor" much more twisted than simply siring a bastard would have.

I disagree. Catelyn's hurt feelings at having to live with a child whom she believed to be her husband's bastard are quite minor, compared to the harm that would have come to Jon if his true parentage were known. I think that passing Jon off as his bastard and raising him at Winterfell was the best solution of the options available to Ned - the boy gets to have the attention of a loving father and the company of siblings, he cannot be used as a pawn by anyone seeking to dethrone Robert, and the only person who gets hurt is Catelyn - and the hurt she suffers isn't anything she can't cope with.

[complexphoenix]

First, it is not easy if it is true. I am not blaming Aerys for everything, but he indeed caused RR. There is almost a year apart between supposed abduction and the beginning of RR. Robert didn't start a war when the news about Lyanna reached him, he started a war when his head was in danger. Plain and simple. Or we can also said that Jon Arryn had it enough with Aerys' madness. In entire equation of RR, Lyanna does not figure. No sane man would die because of Lyanna, they died because Aerys was mad and he needed to be stopped.

Where is it said that a whole year passed between the abduction/elopement and the start of the rebellion? I think the narrative makes it pretty clear that Brandon went running to KL as soon as he heard of it, which can't have been far from the time Robert heard of it. After that, Brandon was imprisoned, Rickard was summoned, Rickard went to KL, Rickard and Brandon died, Aerys sent his order for the heads of Robert and Ned, and the rebellion began.

This does not strike me as a sequence of events that should have taken a whole year. It strikes me as one that should have been between a few weeks and a few months, depending mainly on Lord Rickard's travel time. Robert was in the Eyrie when Lyanna was abducted; it's quite possible that he wanted to go rescue her right away, but Jon Arryn advised him that it was best to let Lord Rickard handle the matter, and cooler heads prevailed until the raven arrived with the order.

[Mladen]

Where is it said that a whole year passed between the abduction/elopement and the start of the rebellion? I think the narrative makes it pretty clear that Brandon went running to KL as soon as he heard of it, which can't have been far from the time Robert heard of it. After that, Brandon was imprisoned, Rickard was summoned, Rickard went to KL, Rickard and Brandon died, Aerys sent his order for the heads of Robert and Ned, and the rebellion began.

This does not strike me as a sequence of events that should have taken a whole year. It strikes me as one that should have been between a few weeks and a few months, depending mainly on Lord Rickard's travel time. Robert was in the Eyrie when Lyanna was abducted; it's quite possible that he wanted to go rescue her right away, but Jon Arryn advised him that it was best to let Lord Rickard handle the matter, and cooler heads prevailed until the raven arrived with the order.

As I have previously said, I made a mistake there... And IMO, between elopement and war it must have passed around 3-4 months.

[lareine]

Qhorin, welcome.

I'm relatively new to the boards myself and I really appreicate seeing fresh perspectives.

I may not share all of your views on some of the charater's, but I do think you bring up a very good point about the concpet of flawed heroism being one of the major themes of the series and that we have already seen several major shifts in perception about different characters. I personally think that is what makes the series so exciting and interesting to read. Nothing and no one in this world are who they first appear to be. With each new book we learn something new about characters past and present. Because there's always such a long lull between books, it's really easy for a lot of us to forget that the series is still unfinished and our knowledge is still incomplete. The views that we hold today on characters, their motives and how they effected major events in the past may turn out to be very different than the ones we'll hold by the end of the series.

[complexphoenix]

I am not saying Rhaegar and Lyanna are completely innocent. But, you have to understand what makes people fight, Can you just imagine Robert summoning his bannermen and telling them: "Rheagar abducted my fiancee, I want all of you to risk your lives for her". They would have killed him instantly. That is the point. War was not about Rhaegar and Lyanna, it was about deposing Aerys.

In thinking about the bannermen, I believe you are missing something very important. By kidnapping Lyanna, Rhaegar had attacked the honor of House Baratheon, and that's a really big deal. A lord who sits on his arse and twiddles his thumbs while something that's rightfully his gets stolen is a lord who's going to lose everything once people figure out "hey, I can steal this guy's stuff with no consequences!" For this reason, bannermen expect their liege to call them to defend or reclaim what's his, whether it's lands, gold, or family members. Why do you think Tywin called the banners when Tyrion was kidnapped? If Tywin's bannermen accepted that they should fight for the dwarf, why wouldn't Robert's bannermen accept that they should fight for the girl?

The reason there was any delay at all in Robert's response to Lyanna's abduction was, I believe, because prior to Rickard and Brandon's executions it seemed like the sort of matter that might be honorably resolved without violence and Robert had Jon Arryn on hand to advise him of that. Rhaegar was not the head of House Targaryen; Aerys could have redeemed the Starks' and Baratheons' honor without bloodshed by returning Lyanna, punishing Rhaegar, and giving an appropriate ceremonial apology. Had he not been crazy, or if Tywin had still been Hand, or if Brandon hadn't been so rash, this is probably what would have happened.

But even without Rickard and Brandon's executions, Aerys would have needed to return Lyanna to avoid a war. They would have fought for her. Because, as I said, a lord cannot simply allow others to take what is his, or he ends up getting robbed blind like Tytos Lannister. That's a key component of the meaning of honor.

[Mladen]

But even without Rickard and Brandon's executions, Aerys would have needed to return Lyanna to avoid a war. They would have fought for her. Because, as I said, a lord cannot simply allow others to take what is his, or he ends up getting robbed blind like Tytos Lannister. That's a key component of the meaning of honor.

Oh, would they? Rickard had no intention of starting a war, he went peacefully to King's Landing to answer his King's call. I think you are nixing the concepts of honor and pride. Rhaegar didn't hurt Robert's honor, he hurt his pride. No one would start a war over Lyanna. People like to romanticize things and say wars were fought for love, or whatever noble feeling. Take Trojan war. It wasn't fought for Helen, it was fought for the quite ordinary things - power, wealth lands. So, even though Robert created the image of himself fighting for the woman he supposedly loved, the truth is that Rebellion was never about Lyanna.

[complexphoenix]

Oh, would they? Rickard had no intention of starting a war, he went peacefully to King's Landing to answer his King's call. I think you are nixing the concepts of honor and pride. Rhaegar didn't hurt Robert's honor, he hurt his pride. No one would start a war over Lyanna. People like to romanticize things and say wars were fought for love, or whatever noble feeling. Take Trojan war. It wasn't fought for Helen, it was fought for the quite ordinary things - power, wealth lands. So, even though Robert created the image of himself fighting for the woman he supposedly loved, the truth is that Rebellion was never about Lyanna.

Where does it say Rickard had no intention of doing anything? It seems to me that Brandon acted before his father could, because he was closer to KL. We don't know how much of the wolf blood Rickard had, but he was a good deal older and presumably wiser than his son. He probably wanted to attempt a peaceful resolution and would have called his banners only if negotiation failed. But they couldn't just let Rhaegar take Lyanna with no consequences. Because if the Targaryens learn that they can take highborn girls as concubines whenever the hell they want, what's next? Anything could be next. In a society like Westeros, rights that go undefended are soon lost.

[Mladen]

Where does it say Rickard had no intention of doing anything? It seems to me that Brandon acted before his father could, because he was closer to KL. We don't know how much of the wolf blood Rickard had, but he was a good deal older and presumably wiser than his son. He probably wanted to attempt a peaceful resolution and would have called his banners only if negotiation failed. But they couldn't just let Rhaegar take Lyanna with no consequences. Because if the Targaryens learn that they can take highborn girls as concubines whenever the hell they want, what's next? Anything could be next. In a society like Westeros, rights that go undefended are soon lost.

Sad things is that, at least Aegon IV took several highborn girls as concubines, so it is not something unheard of. Plus, Rhaegar could have married Lyanna...

Rickard's action speaks about him not doing anything, He didn't raise his bannermen, he didn't start preparing for war. When his son was captured, and when he got news of that, with Aerys' command to come, he did it. So, Lyanna was abducted, Brandon was imprisoned, and Rickard peacefully goes to KL? We already know that he was an ambitious man, trying to unite his House with 2 great Houses from the South, whilst having his son being raised by third. Look, "abduction" of a pretty girl is not cause for war, especially after Harrenhal events. And, after all, rebellion wasn't fought over Lyanna.

[complexphoenix]

Sad things is that, at least Aegon IV took several highborn girls as concubines, so it is not something unheard of. Plus, Rhaegar could have married Lyanna...

Rickard's action speaks about him not doing anything, He didn't raise his bannermen, he didn't start preparing for war. When his son was captured, and when he got news of that, with Aerys' command to come, he did it. So, Lyanna was abducted, Brandon was imprisoned, and Rickard peacefully goes to KL? We already know that he was an ambitious man, trying to unite his House with 2 great Houses from the South, whilst having his son being raised by third. Look, "abduction" of a pretty girl is not cause for war, especially after Harrenhal events. And, after all, rebellion wasn't fought over Lyanna.

Aegon IV's mistresses seem to have been consenting partners, whereas everyone seemed to think that Lyanna's abuction was rape. I suppose it's possible, as some have speculated, that Lyanna did leave a note and Rickard saw it, which would explain why he didn't call the banners, but somehow Brandon didn't get the memo.

But even if that's not the case, it could simply be that Rickard wanted to try for a peaceful resolution first and didn't call his banners because he was trying to avoid inflaming the situation further, but planned on calling his banners if negotiations failed - and he never got the chance, because Aerys burned him before he could return to Winterfell.

Once again: one girl doesn't seem like much, but there is a slippery-slope issue here. Westeros has no FBI, no police forces except in cities, nothing that we would call "the rule of law." If the high lords want to hold on to their stuff, they have to defend it themselves, with their own swords. They have to retaliate when stuff gets stolen, to send the message "steal my stuff and I will hurt you." If they don't retaliate when stuff gets stolen - even small stuff - that sends the message "go ahead and steal my stuff." You let people get away with stealing small stuff, pretty soon they're stealing big stuff. It's a practical issue as much as a pride issue.

Remember how people "borrowed" Tytos Lannister's gold and never bothered to repay it? He just let them get away with it, and lost much of his family's wealth that way. House Lannister only got its stuff back once Tywin took charge and taught the Reynes and Tarbecks a sharp lesson that sent a message to everybody else and put the fear in them. Similarly, if Lord Rickard's attempts to recover Lyanna peacefully ended in failure, House Stark and House Baratheon needed to do something to retaliate against House Targaryen or they would look weak. Once they looked weak, people would seek to take advantage of them and their problems would multiply. Aerys would have gotten the message that he could expand his abuses of power with impunity. You're right that Lyanna shouldn't count for that much as an individual, but there's a principle at stake here that's much bigger than her, a principle that is worth fighting for: the principle that the high lords have rights to the things that are lawfully theirs, and the crown can't just take them arbitrarily.

[Ygrain]

Aegon IV's mistresses seem to have been consenting partners, whereas everyone seemed to think that Lyanna's abuction was rape. I suppose it's possible, as some have speculated, that Lyanna did leave a note and Rickard saw it, which would explain why he didn't call the banners, but somehow Brandon didn't get the memo.

Actually, we don't know what everyone thinks. We see Robert and an official version per Bran fourteen years later, but we don't even know if that is an official all-Westeros version, or just Stark/North version. Targs thinks it was love, so does Barristan, Jorah thinks that Rhaegar wasn't a rapey type, Kevan or Cersei do not mention rape, either. - Not that Cersei is the best example of anything but one necessarily has to wonder if, given her own experience, she would still idolize Rhaegar so much if she thought that he forced himself on Lyanna like Robert did on her.

[Qhorin Quarterhand]

Hey complexphoenix, thanks for all your comments and insights! I think Tywin's reaction to Tyrion's abduction is an especially astute comparison to show how Lyanna's abduction could never have gone unanswered, and the honor of Houses Stark and Baratheon could very well have been a cause of war itself if Aerys hadn't gone and escalated everything through the roof himself. Maybe Rickard Stark was less eager to go to war than Tywin was (in their respective times) and after all he almost immediately had his heir taken hostage, so he was understandably trying to play it cool. But some kind of conflict was inevitable if the matter wasn't honorably resolved -- and once again, Rhaegar must have known that, too. What was he thinking?

Anyway, great stuff. I just wanted to engage you on one point, regarding Ned and Catelyn:

I disagree. Catelyn's hurt feelings at having to live with a child whom she believed to be her husband's bastard are quite minor, compared to the harm that would have come to Jon if his true parentage were known.

Two things -- I don't think Catelyn is the only one hurt. Re-read GoT with an eye to it, and Ned stands out by a man torn apart inside by his guilt and secrets, and unable to heal. I think that's partly due to the secret he kept and the lies to keep it, and partly from guilt, knowing that that the war didn't have to be fought like it had been, and perhaps that if Lyanna hadn't had to be hidden away she could have had better medical attention and not died in childbirth. (I'm not saying he should feel that guilt -- it doesn't seem like he had a lot of input into the causes of war -- but grief makes anyone feel guilty for things they couldn't have known, wish they could have done, and what-ifs that are impossible to answer.)

Anyway, Ned was a haunted man, in need of mega-therapy. Part of it was due to his own choices. We tend to discount the people causing things as victims, but Ned was a victim of his lies as much as anyone.

The second thing is: couldn't Catelyn have kept such a secret? "Family, Duty, Honor." I think she could have understood that they needed to keep Jon's true parentage a secret at least until he was grown, and maybe forever, for his own safety and that of their family. Why didn't Ned trust her with this secret? Maybe it was because they didn't really know each other at first, when he came home from the war. Maybe it was because he thought the "noble" thing to do was to spare her the burden and take it all on himself. Maybe... something else, or a combination of these.

But if Ned had entrusted her with the secret, I have no doubt that she would have guarded it with her life, and probably raised Jon with love as one of her own, and she and Ned could have shared the burden of the secret so that neither would be tormented by all that guilt and resentment. But such is the stuff of tragic choices and flawed heroe; we have to pity Ned even as we respect and admire him.

[Qhorin Quarterhand]

Actually, we don't know what everyone thinks. We see Robert and an official version per Bran fourteen years later, but we don't even know if that is an official all-Westeros version, or just Stark/North version.

Great point, and a reminder that even 5 books in, it's all too easy to revert to viewing things through the lens we started with, via Robert and Ned. And on this especially, that's apt to give us a distorted view.

You make a good case that the "rape" version of the abduction might well be the minority view overall -- even if it is a natural propaganda consequence for those that fought on that side of the war (you end up believing the worst about your opponents, esp if they lost and can't contradict you). By the same token, we would expect the Targs to say it was all love, and mutual. It would be interesting to hear additional, neutral viewpoints on the matter -- though I think you're right that Jorah, and even Cersei, are the closest things we have at this point.

[Ygrain]

Hey complexphoenix, thanks for all your comments and insights! I think Tywin's reaction to Tyrion's abduction is an especially astute comparison to show how Lyanna's abduction could never have gone unanswered, and the honor of Houses Stark and Baratheon could very well have been a cause of war itself if Aerys hadn't gone and escalated everything through the roof himself. Maybe Rickard Stark was less eager to go to war than Tywin was (in their respective times) and after all he almost immediately had his heir taken hostage, so he was understandably trying to play it cool. But some kind of conflict was inevitable if the matter wasn't honorably resolved -- and once again, Rhaegar must have known that, too. What was he thinking?

Then take a good look what Tywin's reaction actually was. He sends his dogs, without the Lannister banners so that he could deny responsibility, to pillage the Riverlands, to provoke the Tullys into breaking the King's peace and becoming aggressors. He also acts at a time when the power of House Lannister is highest in its history and the King's power is weakened through Robert's rule - absolutely incomparable to the rule of Aerys after he suppressed the Defiance of Duskendale.

The second thing is: couldn't Catelyn have kept such a secret? "Family, Duty, Honor." I think she could have understood that they needed to keep Jon's true parentage a secret at least until he was grown, and maybe forever, for his own safety and that of their family. Why didn't Ned trust her with this secret? Maybe it was because they didn't really know each other at first, when he came home from the war. Maybe it was because he thought the "noble" thing to do was to spare her the burden and take it all on himself. Maybe... something else, or a combination of these.

But if Ned had entrusted her with the secret, I have no doubt that she would have guarded it with her life, and probably raised Jon with love as one of her own, and she and Ned could have shared the burden of the secret so that neither would be tormented by all that guilt and resentment. But such is the stuff of tragic choices and flawed heroe; we have to pity Ned even as we respect and admire him.

You're leaving out the part where harboring Jon means treason. By making Cat privy, she would also become complicit, and most probably even resent Jon more for it, for the danger that his presence poised to her own children.

[Qhorin Quarterhand]

Both very good points, Ygrain.

You're right, there's more uncertainty than I'd considered as to how Catelyn would have responded (which may itself argue for why Ned made the choice he did), and we also shouldn't forget that we don't actually know exactly what Lyanna made Ned promise. It may have been much more specific than a generic "keep him safe," and the details could very well have put Ned in the corner, since he's not the type to sorta-more-or-less keep his promises.

[The Sleeper]

A minor nitpick. The rest of Brandon's party were heirs of prominent lords themselves, including Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew and heir. So Arys did manage to piss off half the kingdom. If you consider the casual and cruel way in which he disposed of great lord's and their heirs should make all the others feel very insecure.

Other than that, I think the OP raises some very good issues, though I think he paints a very partial picture. R + L = J compounds Ned's tragedy by making the reasons most of his family dying seem almost trivial and him having to bear the weigth of that truth. I would like to add that it would very much hit Jon with an identity crisis and force to reconsider long held beliefs. I don't think it does much for Robert, though.

[Qhorin Quarterhand]

Thanks, Sleeper. I intentionally made the OP an overstatement to prompt the question of how we might see anyone differently -- since we get skewed, partial views all the time in the books, and frequently learn things that cast people in a new light. I was just looking to prompt discussion around our interpretation of characters and their motives, and I've definitely learned a bit from the discussion people have had.

[Ygrain]

Both very good points, Ygrain.

You're right, there's more uncertainty than I'd considered as to how Catelyn would have responded (which may itself argue for why Ned made the choice he did), and we also shouldn't forget that we don't actually know exactly what Lyanna made Ned promise. It may have been much more specific than a generic "keep him safe," and the details could very well have put Ned in the corner, since he's not the type to sorta-more-or-less keep his promises.

Thank you.

Indeed, the precise wording of his promise to Lyanna would play a role - if she asked him not to tell anyone,then he cannot tell anyone. However, due to his phrasing of "secrets best kept hidden" and not shared even with the loved ones, I don't think that the promise as such was so binding and that the complete secrecy was rather his own choice. A very understandable choice still, given the horrible repercussion for both Jon and House Stark, should the secret ever out.

[Faydra]

I can't pin the entire rebellion on Rhaegar and Lyanna, but no one could deny that the elopement set things in motion.