Sansa's state of mind

[Once]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster.

The Unkiss is often quoted as an example of Sansa being an unreliable narrator, and in another example Sansa misremembers the name of Lion's Tooth? (I don't have the books with me right now). This couldn't be a mistake form Sansa, she was estabilished as very interested in Southron cultures. Septa Mordane taught her the sigils of the houses, eg she knew the sigil of the Cleganes, she likely knew the names of swords too. I've GRRM mentioned somewhere this was intentional but I can't confirm this (maybe you can help?). So we have two instances of Sansa misremebering.

Let's go back again, to the scene that split the readers: the trial between Sansa, Joffrey and Arya. Sansa claims she doesn't remember. This scene was from Ned's point of view so we don't read what's in Sansa's head, thus is often assumed she either did it to defend Joffrey, her future husband, or because she understands the importance of diplomacy and chose to say something that (in hindsight) helps Arya too. What if she truly didn't remember? What if Sansa shows early signs of dementia? She certanly has PSTD (Arya too but deals differently) living around Joffrey, and PSTD is related with Alzheimer http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090713085003.htm

I think alcohol might have helped in that scene too, but I want to know what you think.

PS: This thought worries me because Sansa is one of my favorites, although I know I shouldn't get attached to any character is this series.

[Arya kiddin']

Hello Once. :) Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

In my opinion, Sansa at that time was really fascinated by the King's party, and wanted to be in good books of the Queen and Joffrey both. I think at that time she did lie. Well, she was a child at that moment, and might not have foreseen the ramifications it may have. I don't think it was PSTD etc, she has been shown to be rather sound of mind - like after Ned's execution she quite diplomatically deals with Cersei and the small council, still in self interest. And that was a much more traumatic event than what happened at the Trident.

Now other fans of Sansa (I myself like her very much) will come and defend her by saying that regardless of her actions, the direwolf was going to die - Cersei had her mind set on that anyway. Honestly, I don't see how that excuses her lying. That was a moment of moral failure for her, let's just accept it. I don't think her statement having ramifications on Lady's fate has anything to do with her "not so well" intentions. Even if her lies didn't settle Lady's fate, she did lie.

[bloodofwinterfell]

I think she did remember what happened by the Trident, she just chose to lie because she was scared to admit the truth in the trial. We know this because she immediately told Ned what happened after the whole incident. Initially I really disliked her for lying during that scene, and while I wouldn't excuse it because I still think she should have stuck up for Arya, I understand why she acted that way. If she confirmed Arya's version of the truth, she would be on bad terms with her betrothed and crown prince. It's pretty scary to defy the royal family. Like I said, I don't think that was Sansa's best moment, but I understand why she acted that way.

I still haven't figured out why she misremembers the Blackwater scene, however. That is the bigger question. I don't think it's something really bizarre like her forgetting she was raped (ugh of course it always comes back to rape) ... maybe it's just another sign of her growing attraction and romanticization of Sandor.

Now other fans of Sansa (I myself like her very much) will come and defend her by saying that regardless of her actions, the direwolf was going to die - Cersei had her mind set on that anyway. Honestly, I don't see how that excuses her lying. That was a moment of moral failure for her, let's just accept it. I don't think her statement having ramifications on Lady's fate has anything to do with her "not so well" intentions. Even if her lies didn't settle Lady's fate, she did lie.

I think the problem posters have - myself included - is that people often place the blame for Lady's death on Sansa herself. In regard to Lady's death alone, I see Sansa as the victim so I end up disagreeing with the argument that Sansa caused her death when, in actuality, the only ones to blame are Cersei and Robert.

[Minsc]

Nitpick, IIRC it is actually Arya that misremembers the name of Joffrey's sword. Furthermore, I doubt his sword was anything special more then a steel sword that he named thus it isn't like it is a famous weapon like Ice or Dawn.

[Mladen]

First things first, Once, welcome to the boards. May you have nice time here :cheers:

Now, as Minsc said, Arya was the one misremembering the name of Joffrey's sword, plus unreliable narrator is not something we should rely in analysis of her testimony.

Sansa knew perfectly well what happened there. Meaning, she knew that her sister struck a royal prince. And no matter whether Arya defended poor Mycah, no matter how noble she is, and what type of coward Joffrey is, Arya committed a crime. The parallel we have is that in Dunk and Egg story. So, when she was brought to testimony, she did the wisest thing - not side with anyone. Joffrey and Arya told their versions, but Sansa never said anyone is lying, she never said Joffrey is right and Arya is wrong, meaning she didn't lie about the events, she lied about her state of mind. Instead of dealing this as an adults in private, Robert, Ned and Cersei brought it to the state level. And then when they couldn't settle it down, they put the weight of decision on Sansa by interrogating her in front of entire court. And then Sansa did something that gave them all exit strategy. She doesn't remember, so Robert could have put all of that aside. The problem was that Cersei wanted blood, and she wouldn't have allowed to be won that easily (we know from Tyrion's chapter in AGOT and Jaime's in AFFC). So, she pointed out the only thing Robert couldn't have set aside - the direwolf bit Joffrey. This was incredibly cunning, since she knew how the girls are attached to those wolves, plus she knew she was right in this one. No matter what, we can't change one fact - Nymeria truly bit Joffrey. And Robert, although inclined to set aside this as children's feud, couldn't pass the fact that direwolf truly bit his son. So, after finding out that Nymeria wasn't available, they turned to Lady. Here Robert proved what type of man he really is. To turn the back to pleading, crying 11 year-old girl is something only true coward would do, especially given the fact that girl is his best friend's daughter, his future daughter-in-law and his son's bride.

Now other fans of Sansa (I myself like her very much) will come and defend her by saying that regardless of her actions, the direwolf was going to die - Cersei had her mind set on that anyway. Honestly, I don't see how that excuses her lying. That was a moment of moral failure for her, let's just accept it. I don't think her statement having ramifications on Lady's fate has anything to do with her "not so well" intentions. Even if her lies didn't settle Lady's fate, she did lie.

Well, yes, regardless of the actions, lady would have died. It does not excuse her lying, it is rather fact of life. Nothing would have changed --- Cersei would have been Cersei, Robert would have been Robert, Ned would have been Ned. This wasn't the moment of moral failure. I imagine when you do that to a 11 year-old girl, the only moral failure I see is on Robert, Cersei and Ned. Robert on knowing precisely what happened and turning his back to Sansa, Ned for not just saying "screw this, let's go home", and Cersei, well for being herself. So, whether she had told truth or not, Lady would have died.

[Chatty Duelist]

Traumatized, broken, helpless.

[ARYa_Nym]

She did remember because she told Ned what happened. Anyways, everyone knew that Arya hit Joffrey. That wasn't what it was about. What wasn't clear was Joffrey vs. Arya's actions on what instigated the fight. Robert decided he didn't care and wouldn't let Arya be physically punished and Joffrey was going to be scolded by him no matter who started it.