How would you abolish feudalism?

[Chatty Duelist]

In which way is Westeros changing?

Towards the status quo.

[Jaak]

There would be the practical issue of not abolishing feudalism everywhere - you should not fight all lords at a time, but leave the lords who bend the knee and have the practical ability to resist with their feudal rights.

Joffrey and Tommen somehow were able to pay for the 6000 Gold Cloaks instead of 2000. So how about hiring the Golden Company as standing army of 10 000? Some do want to go to their lands - replace them with new recruits and have them thoroughly drilled to the Golden Company standards.

So - when you forfeit the lands of those who resist and are conquered... keep them as Crown demesne. Install appointed, nonhereditary governors, and garrisons detached from standing army of Golden Company.

[Woman of War]

In which way is Westeros changing?

And that is something that bothers me with the books and with fantasy in general. In order to give readers lore, mythology, mystery and magic fantasy settings tend to have no economical and cultural development and stay far away from any hint of industrialisation. If at all the mines of Moria are hell on earth, industrialization as evil. That political nostalgia is a trait of fantasy I dislike but it may be necessary for our immersion experience.

Yet Martin is trying with introducing bankers as serious force that may overcome kingdoms and make power turn. But no serious technological changes since the bronze age.......it's a story not history.

But of course we are entitled to apply modern methods of historical research here just as readers apply modern understanding of right and wrong, confronting it with in-story morality. The books are a study in some key aspects of human society. While those aspects are put under a microscope others, like economy and technological along with historical development, get neglected for the sake of storytelling.

[Lord Reaver]

If at all the mines of Moria are hell on earth, industrialization as evil.

The mines of Moria became "hell on earth" because a Balrog was set loose in them. Before that, they were the pinnacle of Dwarven achievement since the fall of Nargothrond. Quite far from "hell on earth".

[The Boar of Gore]

Feudalism is already going down in Westeros. Noble and royal houses are getting themselves into unsustainable levels of debt, and relying more and more on the services of able and talented people of low birth or from lesser houses to get them out of it. Thus an upper middle class of bourgeoisie is being created, people who will sooner or later decide that if the feudal system won't let them make it to the top then the feudal system will have to go.

[Jaak]

Feudalism is already going down in Westeros. Noble and royal houses are getting themselves into unsustainable levels of debt, and relying more and more on the services of able and talented people of low birth or from lesser houses to get them out of it. Thus an upper middle class of bourgeoisie is being created, people who will sooner or later decide that if the feudal system won't let them make it to the top then the feudal system will have to go.

They are not in position to change the feudal system. They cannot change the feudal system unless someone inside the feudal system fights for them.

[Chatty Duelist]

They are not in position to change the feudal system. They cannot change the feudal system unless someone inside the feudal system fights for them.

AKA the King (if he wants to).

[Blackfyre demon]

What people on this forum seem to be forgetting is that there was no quick revolution from feudalism towards absolutism.

It was an evolution started by Charles VII during the hundred years war,

Thanks to having only a small kingdom left by the English, he could make several military reforms (standing army) and (permanently) reintroduce the gabelle (salt tax).

Giving him an army and the money to support it and ultimately winning the hundred years war.

His descendants slowly started to strip the high nobility of it's power and rights.

Louis XIV only took the final steps on a road that was laid out long before he was born.

So should someone on the IT even try to implement the changes made in France over nearly 200 years in one lifetime,

he would lose his head quicker than the Ned. No lord would support the king, leaving only him and his demnesne to face the rest of Westeros.

How I would start it:

Reform the gold cloaks into a true standing army

give the commoners some basic rights, implement a codified the law in the crownlands

begin constructing several settlements and settle them. Improve the roads system and create a few extra harbours to improve trade.

Clear out any bandit infestation in the crownlands.

[Jaak]

AKA the King (if he wants to).

Or someone else. Habsburgs lost the German throne because Prussia was better at abolishing feudalism than Austria.

Martells, Lannisters or others might abolish feudalism... and thereby become dangerous.

[JungWheats]

I guess the first thing to do would be to set up a local court system and use royal authority to back it until it becomes part of the culture. You have to create institutions and slowly steal power from the elite so that they don't notice it dripping away.

[Lord Reaver]

What people on this forum seem to be forgetting is that there was no quick revolution from feudalism towards absolutism.

This assumes a fair amount of historic determinism. Just because something happened one way in our history, doesn't mean it always has to go down that way.

Granted, it is unlikely that ideas could develop with such bounds, but they seem to do in the books (Joffrey's speech).

One could well envision paths to the removal of feudalism which didn't go through absolute monarchy. Take the italian republics, for instance.

[joluoto2]

:uhoh: Shit, that's one big army, how can the treasury support that kind of Army?

You need an army of that size to beat the inevitable revolt of the high lords, but yes, Westeros with it's economic system could never afford a standing army of that size.

[Chatty Duelist]

What people on this forum seem to be forgetting is that there was no quick revolution from feudalism towards absolutism.

It was an evolution started by Charles VII during the hundred years war,

Thanks to having only a small kingdom left by the English, he could make several military reforms (standing army) and (permanently) reintroduce the gabelle (salt tax).

Giving him an army and the money to support it and ultimately winning the hundred years war.

His descendants slowly started to strip the high nobility of it's power and rights.

Louis XIV only took the final steps on a road that was laid out long before he was born.

So should someone on the IT even try to implement the changes made in France over nearly 200 years in one lifetime,

he would lose his head quicker than the Ned. No lord would support the king, leaving only him and his demnesne to face the rest of Westeros.

How I would start it:

Reform the gold cloaks into a true standing army

give the commoners some basic rights, implement a codified the law in the crownlands

begin constructing several settlements and settle them. Improve the roads system and create a few extra harbours to improve trade.

Clear out any bandit infestation in the crownlands.

But the French Kings did not do much effort in centralizing the Realm, i mean, it was made over the course of almost 700 years.

Most of the time they were off fighting wars, they did not make a conscious choice to abolish feudalism.

They didn't wake up one day and say "I think i'm going to abolish feudalism today! It should be fun!"

I'm not suggesting you should do this in a day but over the course of your lifetime.

[Beorn Snow]

Like someone pointed out, abolishing feudalism takes more than one generation. It´s basically a question of the king amassing enough power to be able to defeat the lord paramounts should they gang up on him. Without dragons it´s hard to pull off, but with smart marriage alliances and luck it´s doable.

Three strong kings in a row could do it if nothing stops them. One thing that helped the kings of Europe was the growning strength of cities and technological changes. Getting rid of serfdom and getting control of the cities.

You need to win a civil war to pull of something like the King getting hold of the city-tax revenues. That was a big factor in France. Could the king gain Gulltown, White Harbor, Lannisport or Oldtown somehow? Once you have some key-cities, allying with the growing bourgeoise against the nobility could be a start.

[Jaak]

But the French Kings did not do much effort in centralizing the Realm, i mean, it was made over the course of almost 700 years.

Most of the time they were off fighting wars, they did not make a conscious choice to abolish feudalism.

No, it took them 500 years to collect the fiefs of Kingdom of France into royal domain. And I suspect a lot of effort, too.

I'm not suggesting you should do this in a day but over the course of your lifetime.

Philippe-Auguste did a lot. And most of it in two years.

[Chatty Duelist]

No, it took them 500 years to collect the fiefs of Kingdom of France into royal domain. And I suspect a lot of effort, too.

Philippe-Auguste did a lot. And most of it in two years.

Actually it wasn't 'till the French Revolution that France was utterly rid of the Nobles.

Philip did a lot, but the Royal Demesne expanded because he confiscated much of from the Angevins.

[The Iron Banker]

:uhoh: Shit, that's one big army, how can the treasury support that kind of Army?

Taxes

[Chatty Duelist]

Taxes

Taxes from the High Lords? Defintely not, i think you underestimate how much an army of 150k costs to maintain.

To give you an idea:

You have to pay for:

Their wages;

Their food

Their armor (This is a standing army so the Crown would try to make the best of it)

Their weapons

Their horses

Their assistants

Their officers

Their training

Tools, carts, boats, clothes, boots, ammo for the bows, equipment and tons more.

That shit is expensive alright?

France's entire army in 1355 was barely 20 thousand, same for England, they could afford more.

[jet199]

Emancipate the serfs so they can travel where they like and get the highest rate for their labour.

Hire an army of tax collectors so the taxes go directly to central government and tax everyone who owns or rents property.

Introduce high inheritance tax / death duties for the richest so that they have to sell off some of their estates to cover it.

Lease crown-owned land out to farmers.

Introduce national service in the to build up the national army while offering commissions for the nobility to buy themselves a good post (and stop them running their own armies)

Introduce compulsory schooling for all children to educate them in the wonders of the state and why they should be loyal to the crown.

Start a war against a strong opponent and get as many of the leading military minded nobles killed off as possible.

[Lion of the West]

Towards the status quo.

True that.

And that is something that bothers me with the books and with fantasy in general. In order to give readers lore, mythology, mystery and magic fantasy settings tend to have no economical and cultural development and stay far away from any hint of industrialisation. If at all the mines of Moria are hell on earth, industrialization as evil. That political nostalgia is a trait of fantasy I dislike but it may be necessary for our immersion experience.

Yet Martin is trying with introducing bankers as serious force that may overcome kingdoms and make power turn. But no serious technological changes since the bronze age.......it's a story not history.

But of course we are entitled to apply modern methods of historical research here just as readers apply modern understanding of right and wrong, confronting it with in-story morality. The books are a study in some key aspects of human society. While those aspects are put under a microscope others, like economy and technological along with historical development, get neglected for the sake of storytelling.

Well lets not forget that Industralization, Enlightenment and the intellectual offspring from these developments happened exactly 1 time in human history, and there were many other times when that thing did not happen. It didn't happen to the Chinese nor to the Muslims despite that these two cultures had a very good position of kicking it off long before the Europeans, and both of these culture-world turned away from the path that lead to Europeans' domination of the world.

Also there have to our knowledge been a great deal of technological and magical advancements since the dawn of history, but it has been carried out in accordance with the predominant principles of 90-95% of all human societies, which is conservatism.