How would you abolish feudalism?

[Jaak]

Actually it wasn't 'till the French Revolution that France was utterly rid of the Nobles.

So what? The original question was about absolute monarchy.

And Napoleon created lots of nobles, too.

Philip did a lot, but the Royal Demesne expanded because he confiscated much of from the Angevins.

Precisely. That´s how it was possible.

Win a war. Confiscate much from your opponents. And then do not give everything away to your supporters. You do have to give a lot, or else they will rebel against you. But try to keep some for yourself. And don´t put your rewarded supporters in your enemies´ shoes. Try to give smaller pieces to more individual supporters, maybe each with several discontinuous pieces, so they will depend on your Peace to hold what you have given them, and are weak if they try to rise against you.

[Lion of the West]

Emancipate the serfs so they can travel where they like and get the highest rate for their labour.

Hire an army of tax collectors so the taxes go directly to central government and tax everyone who owns or rents property.

Introduce high inheritance tax / death duties for the richest so that they have to sell off some of their estates to cover it.

Lease crown-owned land out to farmers.

Introduce national service in the to build up the national army while offering commissions for the nobility to buy themselves a good post (and stop them running their own armies)

Introduce compulsory schooling for all children to educate them in the wonders of the state and why they should be loyal to the crown.

Start a war against a strong opponent and get as many of the leading military minded nobles killed off as possible.

The big issue with the last point is that the great war you are talking about is the war of every Great House against the crown.And this war will come before any of the other points takes effect.

[Blackfyre demon]

Taxes from the High Lords? Defintely not, i think you underestimate how much an army of 150k costs to maintain.

To give you an idea:

You have to pay for:

Their wages;

Their food

Their armor (This is a standing army so the Crown would try to make the best of it)

Their weapons

Their horses

Their assistants

Their officers

Their training

Tools, carts, boats, clothes, boots, ammo for the bows, equipment and tons more.

That shit is expensive alright?

France's entire army in 1355 was barely 20 thousand, same for England, they could afford more.

Not to forget back then those weren't standing armies, they were levies as in peasants called to war under the rule of the local lords.

The first standing army was only created by Charles VII in France, which was one of the reasons why he eventually won the war.

[Blackfyre demon]

This assumes a fair amount of historic determinism. Just because something happened one way in our history, doesn't mean it always has to go down that way.

Granted, it is unlikely that ideas could develop with such bounds, but they seem to do in the books (Joffrey's speech).

One could well envision paths to the removal of feudalism which didn't go through absolute monarchy. Take the italian republics, for instance.

The idea of absolutism was created long before absolutism existed. The basic idea of absolutism is bound with the idea of descending theory of power (from God to the king)

The idea may exist in Joffrey's head, but that says nothing about implementation.

[Chatty Duelist]

The big issue with the last point is that the great war you are talking about is the war of every Great House against the crown.And this war will come before any of the other points takes effect.

Try to get as many Lordships under your control.

(ie: Aegon is best positioned to do this: Marry Arianne, confiscate the Storm Lands, and Westerlands if he defeats the Lannisters, return the North and the Riverlands to the Starks and Tullys respectively, Divide the Reach and the Iron Islands between his followers, his son will be " His Highness, by the Grace of the Gods and the Will of the People, King of the Andals, the First Men and the Rhoynar, Lord of the Crownlands, Lord of Storm's End, Sunspear, Casterly Rock, Lord of the Seven Kingdom and Protector of the Realm, any war against the remaining Houses will be a cakewalk with so much power at hand.)

[Dana Holland]

You could not jump to any remotely close to standard democracy right away. It would have to be done in phases. Too much of the general population is uneducated for any kind of democratic system to work. I really can't see any kind of situation coming where their was a politcal change top down. Social change in general comes from the lower strata of society.You may get something like the british house of lords One thing we have to keep in mind is the faith militant of the high septon revivals are a huge away of creating populist support for social change in the lower population levels

[Chatty Duelist]

You could not jump to any remotely close to standard democracy right away. It would have to be done in phases. Too much of the general population is uneducated for any kind of democratic system to work. I really can't see any kind of situation coming where their was a politcal change top down. Social change in general comes from the lower strata of society.You may get something like the british house of lords One thing we have to keep in mind is the faith militant of the high septon revivals are a huge away of creating populist support for social change in the lower population levels

I don't want you to bring "democracy" (which doesn't work, even IRL) to Westeros, i want you to centralize the realm into an Absolute Monarchy.

[Blackfyre demon]

But the French Kings did not do much effort in centralizing the Realm, i mean, it was made over the course of almost 700 years.

Most of the time they were off fighting wars, they did not make a conscious choice to abolish feudalism.

They didn't wake up one day and say "I think i'm going to abolish feudalism today! It should be fun!"

I'm not suggesting you should do this in a day but over the course of your lifetime.

Neither did I,

But since Hugo Capet,

the french kings have been slowly moving away from feudalism,

which made them only princeps inter partes, only 'greater' because of their title.

So yes it was a concious move towards some system which would give them more power.

Don't forget in feudalism a king is only as strong as the amount of great lords that back him.

[SeanF]

And that is something that bothers me with the books and with fantasy in general. In order to give readers lore, mythology, mystery and magic fantasy settings tend to have no economical and cultural development and stay far away from any hint of industrialisation. If at all the mines of Moria are hell on earth, industrialization as evil. That political nostalgia is a trait of fantasy I dislike but it may be necessary for our immersion experience.

Yet Martin is trying with introducing bankers as serious force that may overcome kingdoms and make power turn. But no serious technological changes since the

bronze age.......it's a story not history.

But of course we are entitled to apply modern methods of historical research here just as readers apply modern understanding of right and wrong, confronting it with in-story morality. The books are a study in some key aspects of human society. While those aspects are put under a microscope others, like economy and technological along with historical development, get neglected for the sake of storytelling.

You could get terribly bogged down with describing economic and technological change, at the expense of the story.

Joe Abercrombie, however, is doing a good job in describing the early stages of industrialisation, in his world.

[Chatty Duelist]

You could get terribly bogged down with describing economic and technological change, at the expense of the story.

Joe Abercrombie, however, is doing a good job in describing the early stages of industrialisation, in his world.

Tolkien did it, didn't make his books any worse.

[The Boar of Gore]

They are not in position to change the feudal system. They cannot change the feudal system unless someone inside the feudal system fights for them.

Ah but someone will. Someone within the system will sooner or later champion their cause and enlist their support in the factional strife that's always going on between the Great Houses. Whether as a power play or out of principle doesn't matter.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

1. Become wise, educated, skilled and powerful.

Get rich and popular by dragon slaying

Hire mercenaries. The best of the best with the best discipline.

Use your popularity and might to make a few villages / towns accept your rule, to gain some power base. It should be done in a region that is rich with various resources. 

Boost the economy in your regions by introducing your people to science and inventions like the steam-engine.

Use your status to educate your people in their spare time (which they have because of step 5). Make education enjoyable for them.

Use income from the trade with other regions to build universities and schools everywhere.

Make the ignorant nobles totally useless.

[Chatty Duelist]

-----

"Sire! All the Great House have mysteriously exploded!"

"----"

"The Realm is yours now!"

"----"

[Jaak]

Try to get as many Lordships under your control.

(ie: Aegon is best positioned to do this: Marry Arianne, confiscate the Storm Lands, and Westerlands if he defeats the Lannisters, return the North and the Riverlands to the Starks and Tullys respectively, Divide the Reach and the Iron Islands between his followers,

Don´t give away Riverlands and North. Why give them away, since they are weakened for now?

And you cannot divide the Reach between your followers. Too many Lords to fight.

Rather deal with the weakened realms as follows:

Stormlands are used to being ran from King´s Landing. Renly sat there as Master of Laws, and it was ser Cortenay Penrose who ran Stormlands. Stannis only was there briefly, and then marched for King´s Landing.

So, declare Stormlands confiscated and run it by appointed castellans.

Reach? The Tyrells were upjumped stewards. Aegon I made a big mistake appointing them Lords.

Spare the lords who bend the knee. Hopefully some fight, and their lands can be used to reward Golden Company. But Highgarden and its lands give to, well, stewards. Appointed nonhereditary ones.

Riverlands? Run then from Harrenhal or King´s Landing, it is not too far. Again, do not restore Tullys - let the lords who yield bend knee at King´s Landing.

North? Somewhat trickier. Restore the surviving Stark children to Winterfell, but NOT to overall rule of North. Conquer Dreadfort, confiscate these lands - and make them a post for an appointed Warden of the North.

[Chatty Duelist]

Don´t give away Riverlands and North. Why give them away, since they are weakened for now?

And you cannot divide the Reach between your followers. Too many Lords to fight.

Rather deal with the weakened realms as follows:

Stormlands are used to being ran from King´s Landing. Renly sat there as Master of Laws, and it was ser Cortenay Penrose who ran Stormlands. Stannis only was there briefly, and then marched for King´s Landing.

So, declare Stormlands confiscated and run it by appointed castellans.

Reach? The Tyrells were upjumped stewards. Aegon I made a big mistake appointing them Lords.

Spare the lords who bend the knee. Hopefully some fight, and their lands can be used to reward Golden Company. But Highgarden and its lands give to, well, stewards. Appointed nonhereditary ones.

Riverlands? Run then from Harrenhal or King´s Landing, it is not too far. Again, do not restore Tullys - let the lords who yield bend knee at King´s Landing.

North? Somewhat trickier. Restore the surviving Stark children to Winterfell, but NOT to overall rule of North. Conquer Dreadfort, confiscate these lands - and make them a post for an appointed Warden of the North.

What about the Vale?

Though come to think of it, maybe Stannis can do this if more effectively, seeing as though 3 quarters of Westeros fight him.

[Wise Fool]

Easy. Just kill people. Feudalism still exists? Kill more people. Eventually it'll stop being a thing.

Others and Dragons might be useful in this regard, so long as either Others or Dragons don't become feudal lords themselves. Unlikely, but a possibility.

[Chatty Duelist]

Easy. Just kill people. Feudalism still exists? Kill more people. Eventually it'll stop being a thing.

Others and Dragons might be useful in this regard, so long as either Others or Dragons don't become feudal lords themselves. Unlikely, but a possibility.

"Sire! The Tyrells are rebelling!"

Dragon Lord "*Roasts him alive*

Other Lord "*Freezes him alive*"

Though seriously, killing people won't make Feudalism magically disappear. It has been tried many times, ant it has worked exactly zero times.

[Panos Targaryen]

This is referenced a bit in the TV series. There is a scene with Joffrey and Cersei, and Joffrey is complaining about how primitive the system of each lord having his own armies is, calling it primitive and dangerous, and how he wants to establish a "royal army" to give more power to the crown. Cersei however believes that this wouldn't work, as the royal army wouldn't be loyal to the king.

[Jaak]

What about the Vale?

Leave intact. They are too strong to break. Even if they are still there, their chances to rebel would decrease once they are facing Crown which is the paramount Lord of at least 4 of the 7 Kingdoms - not just Crownlands being weaker than any of the 7.

[Wise Fool]

"Sire! The Tyrells are rebelling!"

Dragon Lord "*Roasts him alive*

Other Lord "*Freezes him alive*"

Though seriously, killing people won't make Feudalism magically disappear. It has been tried many times, ant it has worked exactly zero times.

It will, you just have to kill enough people.

Which might be as many as "all but one" and perhaps even "exactly zero survivors," but, technically, it would work!