Aegon at ToJ

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I have a question about Aegon one that Ive have never seen this purposed but what if.... During the Sack of KL when Gregor was sent for Elia and the babe, there was no babe? What if, Tywin upon finding out, decided to find a child have his skull smashed and thus presented to Robert?

Then Kevan would have known about it. And as far as Kevan knew, the dead child was Aegon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yeah I doubt the Lannisters show up at the gates and Varys just suddenly says "Oh I need a baby!"

How about finding a child with the right age after the realization hits in KL that this is an actual rebellion, and not just a mere little argument? That realization hit after the Battle of the Bells, about half a year before the Sack. A baby could be hidden until due time by Varys. Should there never have been a Sack, or a siege of KL, or any danger in KL at all, Varys could have either killed the pisswater child, put it in an orphanage, or raise it as a little bird (though the latter would take a lot of time, so the job could have gone to Illyrio). With any signs of danger in KL, the switch could be done.

And Varys could send out little birds to find a suitable child for him, since many of the people that he spied on had left KL. Perhaps he had little birds to spare.

[house martell 2]

That was from my imagination.

when I quoted you before I realized it may have seemed like I was being snarky toward you, but I didn't mean to be, I give you a lot of credit for owning your comments,

Some people are just so quick to jump on others they don't even care about the details

I was referring to jumping on me about something I didn't even say.

[house martell 2]

How about finding a child with the right age after the realization hits in KL that this is an actual rebellion, and not just a mere little argument? That realization hit after the Battle of the Bells, about half a year before the Sack. A baby could be hidden until due time by Varys. Should there never have been a Sack, or a siege of KL, or any danger in KL at all, Varys could have either killed the pisswater child, put it in an orphanage, or raise it as a little bird (though the latter would take a lot of time, so the job could have gone to Illyrio). With any signs of danger in KL, the switch could be done.

And Varys could send out little birds to find a suitable child for him, since many of the people that he spied on had left KL. Perhaps he had little birds to spare.

I think the point of a switch would have been to get Aegon out of KL, out of harms way. Maybe right around the time Hightower was "dispatched" to get Rhaegar...

[house martell 2]

Rather than this being evidence that Aegon was smuggled out way before the Sack, doesn't it more logically point to there being no switch at all, and Aegon actually dying during the Sack? Maybe instead of trying to warp the switch story to fit logic, you should be more skeptical about the switch story, period.

I'm using logic when I ask "why would Elia be sitting by the front door holding her son, while her daughter is off elsewhere hiding". With eminent danger (city being sacked) it would be logical for a mother to want to keep her children safe and she'd want them together. You don't keep one child by your side and send off the other by herself, UNLESS you want the child your holding to seem like the only one you care about.

[Ser Leftwich]

“It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl’s body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father’s bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below.”

There are a number of possible scenarios that could explain the circumstances. Just a few.

1) Elia is in the bedroom above, asleep with Rhaenys.. commotion of Clegane/Lorch, Elia goes to the baby downstairs in the nursery. Rhaenys wakes to find Elia gone. Hides under bed.

2) Elia is elsewhere, comes to the nursery, finds Rhaenys gone (she went upstairs to under the bed when she woke and found no one there) Elia looks to Aegon, the one she can find.

3) Varys could be misleading with the “My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a... certain name... when they came for her,” line. Elia could have cried AEGON, because Varys had made the switch and Elia recognized the her son was gone.

It makes sense that Elia went to the infant son, with the premium that Westeros puts on male children.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think the point of a switch would have been to get Aegon out of KL, out of harms way. Maybe right around the time Hightower was "dispatched" to get Rhaegar...

Not again. Why so set on getting Aegon out of KL so much sooner? Why not believe the official story?

[pestor]

Then Kevan would have known about it. And as far as Kevan knew, the dead child was Aegon.

Why would Kevan have known about it? We have already seen in this series that there are some secrets you can not even trust to tell to those closest to you. Couldn't Kevan just be buying what Tywin's selling? We are told that there isn't a thought Kevan has that Tywin didn't have first.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Why would Kevan have known about it? We have already seen in this series that there are some secrets you can not even trust to tell to those closest to you. Couldn't Kevan just be buying what Tywin's selling? We are told that there isn't a thought Kevan has that Tywin didn't have first.

And that Kevan was Tywins right hand. Why wouldn't Tywin tell Kevan. If there was no child and Tyqin planted a dead fake child, he'd realize that the real Aegon could always show up at some point. But Tywin, as head of his house, couldn't go searching for a babe. It would be noticed if Tywin suddenly started to travel all over. But it would be a secret he wouldn't be able to entrust just anyone with. So he'd sent the man he trusted the most: Kevan.

[jet199]

It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girls body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her fathers bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below.

There are a number of possible scenarios that could explain the circumstances. Just a few.

1) Elia is in the bedroom above, asleep with Rhaenys.. commotion of Clegane/Lorch, Elia goes to the baby downstairs in the nursery. Rhaenys wakes to find Elia gone. Hides under bed.

2) Elia is elsewhere, comes to the nursery, finds Rhaenys gone (she went upstairs to under the bed when she woke and found no one there) Elia looks to Aegon, the one she can find.

3) Varys could be misleading with the My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a... certain name... when they came for her, line. Elia could have cried AEGON, because Varys had made the switch and Elia recognized the her son was gone.

It makes sense that Elia went to the infant son, with the premium that Westeros puts on male children.

To me that quote makes it look like Rhaegar and Elia had separate beds, not uncommon for couples in the middle ages. I think the explanation given is probably correct, the girl went looking for her father not understanding he would never be coming back.

If Elia did realise a swap the name could well be Varys which would fit with his habit of half telling the truth.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

To me that quote makes it look like Rhaegar and Elia had separate beds, not uncommon for couples in the middle ages. I think the explanation given is probably correct, the girl went looking for her father not understanding he would never be coming back.

If Elia did realise a swap the name could well be Varys which would fit with his habit of half telling the truth.

Ned and Cat had different rooms, Cat comments on that in one of her first chapters in aGoT, when Ned is still in Winterfell. Their marriage was a happy and good one, yet they still has separate bedrooms.

So I'd call it very common :)

I do believe that any swap would have been noticed by Elia, and thus likely happened with her consent. Which mother wouldn't recognize her own child? You'd see it if there suddenly was a different child sleeping in the bed.

[pestor]

And that Kevan was Tywins right hand. Why wouldn't Tywin tell Kevan. If there was no child and Tyqin planted a dead fake child, he'd realize that the real Aegon could always show up at some point. But Tywin, as head of his house, couldn't go searching for a babe. It would be noticed if Tywin suddenly started to travel all over. But it would be a secret he wouldn't be able to entrust just anyone with. So he'd sent the man he trusted the most: Kevan.

How could Tywin safely share that information with Kevan without risking the information from getting out?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

How could Tywin safely share that information with Kevan without risking the information from getting out?

Don't be so paranoid. No one (not even Varys) can listen to everyone's conversations at the same time.

LF convined Joffrey to kill Ned, and LF and Joffrey would be two people who Varys would watch closely, yet Varys didn't know about that.

To counter you with a question: If Tywin had found Aegon´s bed empty and placed a fake Aegon with a smashed head in front of Robert, do you truly believe he wouldn´t have figured that the real Aegon would still be alive and that he'd someday come back for his birth right?

So "Oh, Aegon is missing. I am going to put a dead baby (where would he have found that, and who would have gotten it for him, btw?) in front of Robert, so he'll believe Aegon is dead. The real Aegon would still be alive, but I guess there is no way he could ever come back to haunt me, nor try to take back the throne."

I'd say that is not an option.

[pestor]

Don't be so paranoid. No one (not even Varys) can listen to everyone's conversations at the same time.

LF convined Joffrey to kill Ned, and LF and Joffrey would be two people who Varys would watch closely, yet Varys didn't know about that.

To counter you with a question: If Tywin had found Aegon´s bed empty and placed a fake Aegon with a smashed head in front of Robert, do you truly believe he wouldn´t have figured that the real Aegon would still be alive and that he'd someday come back for his birth right?

So "Oh, Aegon is missing. I am going to put a dead baby (where would he have found that, and who would have gotten it for him, btw?) in front of Robert, so he'll believe Aegon is dead. The real Aegon would still be alive, but I guess there is no way he could ever come back to haunt me, nor try to take back the throne."

I'd say that is not an option.

Tywin Lannister is the most powerful man in the 7 Kingdoms. If he says he killed the boy who is going to question him. All Tywin would have to do is name him a pretender.

We are talking about the same man right? The one who killed off the Raines an Tarbecks, right? The one who can not stand a slight on his families honor and sent out his "dogs" to make the Tully's pay for Catelyns actions?

Also Joffery's the same kid who gutted a cat to see the kittens in its belly, and his feelings about how to deal with traitor is such:SOS 671

“They should all be put to the sword,” Joffrey declared suddenly. “The Mallisters and Blackwoods and Brackens . . . all of them. They’re traitors. I want them killed, Grandfather. I won’t have any generous terms.” The king turned to Grand Maester Pycelle. “And I want Robb Stark’s head too. Write to Lord Frey and tell him. The king commands. I’m going to have it served to Sansa at my wedding feast.”

So I dont think there was much convincing by LF

If I am parionoid Tywin must be too...Tywin to Tyrion SOS 674

“No one was told, save those who had a part to play. And they were only told as much as they needed to know. You ought to know that there is no other way to keep a secret—here, especially. My object was to rid us of a dangerous enemy as cheaply as I could, not to indulge your curiosity or make your sister feel important.” He closed the shutters, frowning. “You have a certain cunning, Tyrion, but the plain truth is you talk too much. That loose tongue of yours will be your undoing.

[house martell 2]

Not again. Why so set on getting Aegon out of KL so much sooner? Why not believe the official story?

Official story? I guess Jon is Neds bastard then, case closed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Official story? I guess Jon is Neds bastard then, case closed.

The difference is that there's a substantial amount of evidence that Jon is not Ned's son, whereas there's good evidence that Varys's baby switch story is complete bullshit.

[house martell 2]

“It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl’s body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father’s bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below.”

1) Elia is in the bedroom above, asleep with Rhaenys.. commotion of Clegane/Lorch, Elia goes to the baby downstairs in the nursery. Rhaenys wakes to find Elia gone. Hides under bed.

2) Elia is elsewhere, comes to the nursery, finds Rhaenys gone (she went upstairs to under the bed when she woke and found no one there) Elia looks to Aegon, the one she can find.

3) Varys could be misleading with the “My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a... certain name... when they came for her,” line. Elia could have cried AEGON, because Varys had made the switch and Elia recognized the her son was gone.

It makes sense that Elia went to the infant son, with the premium that Westeros puts on male children.

Tywin does not know Rhaenys motivation for hiding under the bed, so to say "as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her" is pure speculation. The little girls instinct would be to find her mom, for her to be elsewhere is MOST likely because she was told to. I doubt Elia slept in the nursery, her room was probably upstairs near Rhaegars, so she went to that baby and waited for whoever was coming.

[house martell 2]

The difference is that there's a substantial amount of evidence that Jon is not Ned's son, whereas there's good evidence that Varys's baby switch story is complete bullshit.

What is the "good evidence", an unrecognizable baby corpse?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What is the "good evidence", an unrecognizable baby corpse?

You do realize that the unrecognizable baby corpse works both ways, right? Because frankly it's embarrassing if you don't.

There are dozens of threads that go into great detail about why Young Griff isn't Aegon. I suggest you use the Search function that is so helpfully available.

[house martell 2]

Not again. Why so set on getting Aegon out of KL so much sooner? Why not believe the official story?

Another reason to have Aegon out is because Aerys sent him away, knowing that he may burn the city to the ground. As "mad" as he may have been I doubt he wanted the Targ line to end, so Varys the switch may have been sponsored by the King.