Aegon at ToJ

[house martell 2]

FIne Ned didn't find Aegon at the ToJ (maybe). But Aegon could have been there and the KG meeting the the N7 out front and taking on 7 horsed trained fighters makes more sense if they are buying time for Ashara and Aegon to get away, where Ned later meets her at Starfall and she fakes her death to slip off to Essos.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

FIne Ned didn't find Aegon at the ToJ (maybe). But Aegon could have been there and the KG meeting the the N7 out front and taking on 7 horsed trained fighters makes more sense if they are buying time for Ashara and Aegon to get away, where Ned later meets her at Starfall and she fakes her death to slip off to Essos.

And you don't think the men would have noticed a woman and child riding off, or that a Kingsguard wouldn't have accompanied Aegon?

Aegon wasn't at the Tower.

[Aetta]

First of all, I'll explain the method. I call it the Laocoonte method.

You find out some wreckage, and there are heads, pieces of limbs,... You guess it was a sculpture, and you want you know what it looked like. You might not even have all the pieces, but you still find it's worth the try.

Well, this is a story, not a sculpture, but the method holds. I try to build a story with details laid about in the series. Theses pieces must fit. The theory stands while it's not proven that:

* the pieces don't fit

* there's another piece not taken into account

* some of your own stuff is false

Eventually, GRRM will release the books but we can play the game in the meanwhile.

What we have (it can be elaborated)

Rhaegar mistrusted Aerys, he planned “something” about it

Aerys mistrusted anyone

Aerys used Elia and her children as hostages

Rhaegar's whereabuts were unkown to Jaime, and probably Aerys, but he was in touch with “someone” out there

Jon Connington was Rhaegar's best friend, together with Arthur Dayne

Hightower obeyed Aerys over any other consideration

Hightower behaviour is not proper to the Lord Commander od the Kings Guard, unless there's something more never stated in the books (btw, please tell me where it's written than Jon Snow was born at the Tower of Joy)

Arthur Dayne was an outstanding army leader

Robert Rebellion was a serious threat

Hightower, Dayne and Whent are left aside in the final battle.

What didn't happen

Hightower didn't escort Rhaegar back to KL, nor took care of Aerys

AD didn't help Rhaegar with the army

JC wasn't called back

Lyanna wasn't allowed to KL, or Rhaegar didn't trust to take her.

What we can easily guess

Rhaegar asked something in exchange when he came back. He'd haggle with Aerys for the price of his coming back through some intermediare.

There was something of huge value at ToJ to leave three KG, not only a pregnant second wife .

My own stuff

Rhaegar wanted Aegon out of Aerys reach. He required him to be handed out.

Aerys charged it to Hightower.

Rhaegar mistrusted Hightower's loyalty and ordered him to stay at ToJ to guard Aegon, as Aerys had ordered him. In fact, not to reveal ToJ.

He had to leave two is loyals to watch Hightower.

You're wellcome to find the flaws, that's the nature of the game. And remember, this is just a game.

BBM-Now this is an interesting point I rested my head on last night, without conclusion; Aerys, I believe, knew exactly where Rhaegar was. He sent the White Bull looking for him, and he certainly knew something was going on when Brandon Stark came galloping into town to call out the prince.

I am beginning to wonder, as well, whether Lyanna's whereabouts were previously well known to any member of the Stark family-aka Ned. As someone was pointing out on another thread last night, I find it awkward that Ned only showed up at the ToJ with a small posse, not knowing if he would find a whole Dornish host there with Rhaegar and his sister. The missing link is here, I believe, amongst the Starks. The others are either doing their job, abiding the prince, not taking Robert seriously...or perhaps thinking Twyin would step in to help crush the rebellion.

I am curious, not to bring the thread in a different direction, however, as to these missing pieces:

-Does Ned have any knowledge about or ability to warg or greensee? He never frickin mentions it, which I think is so odd.

-Did Ned see anything when he was praying at Harrenhall? Did Lyanna? Specifically that relates back to ToJ and the KG, don't want to venture way off topic...

-Howland H. Reed. WTH is he doing in all of this?

-Let's take a nefarious turn-would someone harm Lyanna in the event it was Ned/someone else that arrived at ToJ, rather than Rhaegar returning? Lyanna is hollering out the window for Ned one minute and then whispering in death the next-Did someone harm or poison her? (Total speculation in any answer, of course)

I like the style of the OP, to fill in the blanks, but even the blanks have blanks, so I giving it a blanking shot.

[house martell 2]

And you don't think the men would have noticed a woman and child riding off, or that a Kingsguard wouldn't have accompanied Aegon?

Aegon wasn't at the Tower.

Seeing as how they were in a tower, they prob saw the N7 riding from some distance, Ashara/Aegon could have slipped out well before Ned & co. were close enough to see. Also assuming Aegon is alive (which he may not be but for our purposes now, lets say he is), he went off at some point without the KG, and who more trusted to get him safely to Starfall than Daynes own sister?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Seeing as how they were in a tower, they prob saw the N7 riding from some distance, Ashara/Aegon could have slipped out well before Ned & co. were close enough to see. Also assuming Aegon is alive (which he may not be but for our purposes now, lets say he is), he went off at some point without the KG, and who more trusted to get him safely to Starfall than Daynes own sister?

My point is that they would not send the infant king of Westeros off on his own without a Kingsguard. Ashara Dayne is not a member of the Kingsguard.

[house martell 2]

My point is that they would not send the infant king of Westeros off on his own without a Kingsguard. Ashara Dayne is not a member of the Kingsguard.

I'm saying if Aegon was sent off to Essos he went W/out a KG one way or another. And those riders represented the biggest threat to Aegon and the KG were dealing with them. I still say if baby Jon in the tower was the only priority then the KG should have done a better job protecting him, and Aerys sending GH to the ToJ and not returning makes sense if he's guarding an already born heir.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm saying if Aegon was sent off to Essos he went W/out a KG one way or another. And those riders represented the biggest threat to Aegon and the KG were dealing with them. I still say if baby Jon in the tower was the only priority then the KG should have done a better job protecting him, and Aerys sending GH to the ToJ and not returning makes sense if he's guarding an already born heir.

And I'm saying that that idea is non-starter. There's no way he have been sent from the Tower without any Kingsguard. That's what I keep trying to tell you. They would not send an infant, an infant that is now the king, anywhere without at least one of them going along.

And obviously he didn't leave King's Landing without Kingsguard because he never left King's Landing at all. He died in the Sack. He's dead.

[house martell 2]

And I'm saying that that idea is non-starter. There's no way he have been sent from the Tower without any Kingsguard. That's what I keep trying to tell you. They would not send an infant, an infant that is now the king, anywhere without at least one of them going along.

And obviously he didn't leave King's Landing without Kingsguard because he never left King's Landing at all. He died in the Sack. He's dead.

I think he's alive, I was on the fence until a recent reread when I noticed the part about how Elia was sitting down stairs holding the baby while Rhaenys was upstairs hiding under the bed, I got the impression that Elia was almost waiting offering up herself and the baby boy(who was not Aegon) to try and save Rhaenys, which she wouldn't have been doing with the real Aegon.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Apple Martini, on 04 Jan 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

And I'm saying that that idea is non-starter. There's no way he have been sent from the Tower without any Kingsguard. That's what I keep trying to tell you. They would not send an infant, an infant that is now the king, anywhere without at least one of them going along.

And obviously he didn't leave King's Landing without Kingsguard because he never left King's Landing at all. He died in the Sack. He's dead.

The primary duty of the KG is to protect the king. That's that. Why, oh why does that not sink in with people? :bang:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think he's alive, I was on the fence until a recent reread when I noticed the part about how Elia was sitting down stairs holding the baby while Rhaenys was upstairs hiding under the bed, I got the impression that Elia was almost waiting offering up herself and the baby boy(who was not Aegon) to try and save Rhaenys, which she wouldn't have been doing with the real Aegon.

That doesn't make any sense. If anything, it supports the idea that it was Aegon that died, because why the hell would Elia be holding onto a baby that wasn't hers while her biological, actual daughter was completely alone? It's also predicated on the idea that Elia knew she was in mortal danger, something that I don't think is suggested, given that Gregor and Lorch had to scale the walls to even get in. She probably didn't know the peril until Gregor was in the room with her.

[house martell 2]

That doesn't make any sense. If anything, it supports the idea that it was Aegon that died, because why the hell would Elia be holding onto a baby that wasn't hers while her biological, actual daughter was completely alone? It's also predicated on the idea that Elia knew she was in mortal danger, something that I don't think is suggested, given that Gregor and Lorch had to scale the walls to even get in. She probably didn't know the peril until Gregor was in the room with her.

The city was being sacked, by the time Gregor & Lorch made it to the RK I'm sure Elia would have noticed something was up, and I'm saying Elia was offering up herself and the fake baby to try and save Rhaenys

[Schmendrick]

The city was being sacked, by the time Gregor & Lorch made it to the RK I'm sure Elia would have noticed something was up, and I'm saying Elia was offering up herself and the fake baby to try and save Rhaenys

But how would that make Rhaenys safer? Anyone who wants Aegon dead would want his sister dead for the same reason -- she's one of Rhaegar's heirs too. In fact, if they think they've just killed Aegon, that puts Rhaenys in even more danger because she's (potentially) next in line for the throne.

[house martell 2]

But how would that make Rhaenys safer? Anyone who wants Aegon dead would want his sister dead for the same reason -- she's one of Rhaegar's heirs too. In fact, if they think they've just killed Aegon, that puts Rhaenys in even more danger because she's (potentially) next in line for the throne.

Elia was trying to buy time and give Rhaenys a chance (Elia may not have known they were coming for the kids specifically, only that they were in danger), unfortunately the little girl didn't do a good job getting away.

[Schmendrick]

Elia was trying to buy time and give Rhaenys a chance (Elia may not have known they were coming for the kids specifically, only that they were in danger), unfortunately the little girl didn't do a good job getting away.

Rhaenys was somewhere around 2 or 3 years old. It would be all but impossible for a child of that age to escape on her own. And if Elia thought they were coming at all, then she definitely would have thought they were coming for the kids. Elia herself was not a threat to anyone, as Tywin points out.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

FIne Ned didn't find Aegon at the ToJ (maybe). But Aegon could have been there and the KG meeting the the N7 out front and taking on 7 horsed trained fighters makes more sense if they are buying time for Ashara and Aegon to get away, where Ned later meets her at Starfall and she fakes her death to slip off to Essos.

So according to you, Ashara sneaked away from Ned with Aegon, only to meet up with Ned later? Ah, the logic.

Ashara having faked her death is certainly a possibility.

But Ashara aiding Lyanna, or even Rhaegar for that matter, after all they have done to Elia, to whom Ashara had been a lady in waiting for several years? No. Just no.

[finger]

So according to you, Ashara sneaked away from Ned with Aegon, only to meet up with Ned later? Ah, the logic.

Ashara having faked her death is certainly a possibility.

But Ashara aiding Lyanna, or even Rhaegar for that matter, after all they have done to Elia, to whom Ashara had been a lady in waiting for several years? No. Just no.

But it's logical! Let's suppse it happened as you say.

First, we don't know hoe Ashara left about Lyanna. Remember "she turned to Stark" at HH, whatever that can mean.

Second, she'd lived with Rhaegar, and we can't be sure of what she¡d do for him.

Third, letting aside these, you're making the point that she was loyal to Elia. Only for that, she'd try to save Elia'son.

The 3 KG and Ashara would try to keep Aegon unkown to Ned. Should they die, Ned should not suspect. So, they'd stay at ToJ and never allow Ned to have a glipse of Aegon.

Leaving Aegon without a KG is a main point of the deceit, and deceit was essential to Aegon's safety. That would half-explain why Rhaegar left his best men there, instead of taking them to battle: he trusted them to take the right decissions.

To follow up the deceit, Asahara received Ned at home, as if nothing happened. Aegon would surely be at some nursery, or troddling Starfall. Ned would search for him, of course, since he thought him dead. Even if he saw him, he could be introduced as some relative, and Ned wouldn't doubt. Remember that Darkstar features are not too different than Rhaegar's. In the event, the Daynes could show him Arianne to draw his attention. I guess deceiving Ned wasn't difficult; everybody at KL did it.

The end of the deceit is Ashara faking her suicide and fleing with Aegon.

We can't be sure of their whole plan. They might have decided to die at ToJ, as I think. But the survivors could have thought to join the royals at Essos. The died, and I guess GRRM won¡t disclose it. He likes to leave some mystery unsolved now and again.

[Buried Treasure]

The city was being sacked, by the time Gregor & Lorch made it to the RK I'm sure Elia would have noticed something was up, and I'm saying Elia was offering up herself and the fake baby to try and save Rhaenys

Thats basically consistent with what Aegon himself believes happened to him. I don't understand though, if you believe that Aegon is real why not believe the version he was told about being smuggled out of KL aboard ship? If the kid really was rescued from KL, why would Varys and Illyrio make up a false story of how it happened instead of telling the true version?

Sending Aegon to the toj for safety strikes me as ludicrous. The toj is a decent enough location as a medium term secret hideout in peacetime, which is why Rhaegar took Lyanna there. Why pick it Aegon in wartime? Safety? A small troop could take the place and just getting him there meant weeks on the road with few guards. Seclusion? For a little while, but Aegon needed to be kept safe long term. Overnight stop on the way somewhere else? Its rather out of the way for that.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

How about Rhaegar believing that Aegon had a greater role to fulfil: he was the Prince that was Promised.

In Rhaegars mind, Aegon most likely couldn't come to harm, since he would have to fulfil a prophecy. And if Rhaegar didn't believe Aegon could be harmed, he would see no need to transport Aegon somewhere else.

[WeaselPie]

The primary duty of the KG is to protect the king. That's that. Why, oh why does that not sink in with people? :bang:

I believe the point is that the KG were indeed protecting the King at the ToJ, and that king's name is Aegon, and they were there protecting a live King instead of only a pregnant woman who may or may not have had a son in the oven. For all anyone knew before she actually gave birth, Lyanna could have had a girl or a miscarriage. A fetus is not a King.

[J. Stargaryen]

I believe the point is that the KG were indeed protecting the King at the ToJ, and that king's name is Aegon, and they were there protecting a live King instead of only a pregnant woman who may or may not have had a son in the oven. For all anyone knew before she actually gave birth, Lyanna could have had a girl or a miscarriage. A fetus is not a King.

Except we have no reason at all to believe Aegon was at the ToJ, aside from the one that already fits better with all of the other evidence we have; i.e., the presence of the KG.

The KG defending Aegon at the ToJ argument only works well in a vacuum. Once you consider the rest of the evidence, it's quite clear that Aegon and the ToJ have nothing to do with one another.