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Happy Ent

Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

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This comparison with us and bacteria is a very silly one. Bacteria doesn't even remotely resemble life as we instinctively know it. A more accurate example like I said is to use the Neanderthals. Actually, the Inchoroi were probably even closer to the Men/Nonmen than we are to the Neanderthals before they started the modification cycles. (Before you respond by saying that the Inchoroi modified themselves so that Men/Nonmen look like bacteria to them read below or what I said earlier.)

We as human beings are fully capable of compassion for each other and yet we give zero shits about most types of life on this planet. The Inchoroi, given their self-modification proclivities, are easily capable of doing so to an even greater extent.

I never said that we are not capable of not showing compassion or treating other animals and humans like shit. I said that the idea that those beings should not be treated like shit is something that most humans are able to conceive of.

The argument that since these animals have feelings, emotions, family bonds, and are even capable of showing empathy (just like we do) they should not be treated like shit, is a persuasive one to most people. EVEN if they don't start applying that concept in their daily lives or they're [not] convinced by it, they are still capable of understanding that line of reasoning, which is what everyone here is saying the Inchoroi are not capable of doing (that would only be true if the Inchoroi abandon compassion altogether, including for themselves)

The simple fact is that your assertion that one cannot be incapable of compassion towards other beings while still caring about oneself and one's kind is just not true. It's easily disproven, as shown above.

The assertion was that we cannot modify ourselves so that other beings that we already have compassion for -because they resemble us- start looking like rocks/bacteria without compromising our compassion for ourselves.

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You said he was like a human psychopath. I agreed, he is somewhat like one. That doesn't mean he thinks anything like a human does.

The fact that he thinks/speaks/acts/reasons like a human means that he thinks like a human, as opposed to having processes of determining behavior that are completely alien to us.

What makes you think the Inchies haven't done this to some extent? Inchies probably view being raped as much less of a problem than we do...though if this is outright stated it's something readers may find problematic.

It's arguable that Inchies don't consider their own bodies inviolate unless suffering past the point of their preference toward masochism is involved.

The issue with damnation is it involves the soul, which cannot be rewired in the way the physical mind can. They can't just rewire themselves to get sexual pleasure from suffering [in Hell] - the soul remains subject to torment as the tortures inflicted on it can't be circumvented by manipulations of the material brain.

Damnation, or any form of torture involving the soul should be unimaginable to the Inchoroi. It's not something that you can see, or really think about in any meaningful way.

What would be your reaction if you were told that your soul (as opposed to your body) is going to be tortured? Assuming that you -like the Inchoroi- don't believe in a soul to begin with or don't know what it is.

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The fact that he thinks/speaks/acts/reasons like a human means that he thinks like a human, as opposed to having processes of determining behavior that are completely alien to us.

In Wise Man's Fear, Rothfuss posits that the fey have an "uncanny valley" mentality and morality. At times they seem akin to us but in truth their ideas of about morals are very different from ours.

I think the same applies to the Inchies.

What would be your reaction if you were told that your soul (as opposed to your body) is going to be tortured? Assuming that you -like the Inchoroi- don't believe in a soul to begin with or don't know what it is.

I'd be angry at existence itself, that I should be damned for boundaries of skin. To an Inchie, raping and being raped is like fragging people in a LAN Party playing Quake. Yeah you might get mad when it happens to you, but it's not immoral.

That's what makes the Inchies interesting. They aren't creatures of Platonic Evil like fiends in other settings. They just have different wiring.

Now I do wonder how they came to understand their own damnation or even learn of the Outside - did areas of their homeworld fall into topos? I suppose ceaseless suffering of billions for the delight of an elite genetically "superior" caste could open their world to Hell for the first time, if this was magnitudes above suffering committed prior to that point.

Alternatively they drilled past passed the smallest subatomic particles and experienced a Revelation about the foundation of reality. Which makes me wonder if the current nature of the Bakkerverse's Inward is arbitrary. Has the God dreamed up previous creations, ones in which the Tekne is useless because reality was more pliable and everyone was Few?

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Damnation, or any form of torture involving the soul should be unimaginable to the Inchoroi. It's not something that you can see, or really think about in any meaningful way.

This kind of makes doubt the IF experience. Experiencing the outside or damnation should be beyond the capability of the brain of any being that evolved in "the Inside". It's like asking someone to imagine what life would be like in 4 or more dimensions of space, or what the universe would look like without space and time... There is no device that exists in 3 dimensions that can show you what life would be like in say, 7 dimensions. Similarly, there shouldn't be a device to witness the outside from the inside. But I guess this is where the fantasy aspect comes into play...

The fact that he thinks/speaks/acts/reasons like a human means that he thinks like a human, as opposed to having processes of determining behavior that are completely alien to us.

Someone pointed out that Aurang might be the anomaly, I agree, I think the Inchoroi originally were more similar to the one at the end of TWP than the synthese. Although, if they do have a process of making decisions that is completely alien to us [some different than "thinking"] then I suspect that it would be also impossible for us to contemplate that process, the same way we can't imagine higher dimensions of space.

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On something completely unrelated...Why did the Nonman that Kellhus met in the prologue of TDTCB let him go? By saying that he fought against the No-God then for him, isn't he saying that he's with the consult now?


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By saying that he fought against the No-God then for him, isn't he saying that he's with the consult now?

Hi, and welcome to this board.

We know (via Bakker directly, out-of-books) that this Nonman is none other than Cet' ingira, or Mekertrig himself. He’s not only “with the Consult now,” he founded it. He’s the boss (together with the human sorcerer Shaeönanra, and the Inchoroi brothers Aurax and Aurang.)

He let him go because Kellhus ran very fast. That’s the best explanation we have. (It’s also important for the plot.)

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Hi, and welcome to this board.

We know (via Bakker directly, out-of-books) that this Nonman is none other than Cet' ingira, or Mekertrig himself. He’s not only “with the Consult now,” he founded it. He’s the boss (together with the human sorcerer Shaeönanra, and the Inchoroi brothers Aurax and Aurang.)

Mindfucked.

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I wonder so much though about how the Big Four from the Consult even handle administrative matters. Shae is more a thing of spirit barely keeping out of death. Mek is erratic...what kind of administrative skills could he have at this point? And the two inchies are probably in decent enough shape, but what a motley crew.


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I wonder so much though about how the Big Four from the Consult even handle administrative matters. Shae is more a thing of spirit barely keeping out of death. Mek is erratic...what kind of administrative skills could he have at this point? And the two inchies are probably in decent enough shape, but what a motley crew.

Certainly don't inspire much in the way of fear...

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Wait... If he founded the consult, then how could he say that he fought against the No-God?

Because his brain is swiss cheese. That or he meant that he fought for and against the Inchoroi.

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Certainly don't inspire much in the way of fear...

Excepting that together they are easily the most powerful group in the world. All of them have dabbled with the Tekne (Aurax apparently excelling here). All of them have the ability to work sorcery - the Brothers Inchoroi survive the Graft to see the onta sometime during the Cuno-Inchoroi wars and would have Quyan Gnostics as their contemporary examples of sorcery (even those renegade Aporetic practitioners, however that might work). Mekertrig had a normal Nonman lifespan of practice (compounded by being hereditary Quya, however that works) and then the immortality of Aurang and Aurax, all of whom then could have been practicing for about four thousand years now (I wonder what else the Brothers Inchoroi would have done finding themselves trapped in the Ark by a sorcerous Glamour for around that first millenia). Shaeonanra (cum Shariatas) is the prodigy of his age... aside, you know, that Titirga character.

Not at all terrifying.

or he meant that he fought for and against the Inchoroi.

+1.

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Excepting that together they are easily the most powerful group in the world. All of them have dabbled with the Tekne (Aurax apparently excelling here). All of them have the ability to work sorcery - the Brothers Inchoroi survive the Graft to see the onta sometime during the Cuno-Inchoroi wars and would have Quyan Gnostics as their contemporary examples of sorcery (even those renegade Aporetic practitioners, however that might work). Mekertrig had a normal Nonman lifespan of practice (compounded by being hereditary Quya, however that works) and then the immortality of Aurang and Aurax, all of whom then could have been practicing for about four thousand years now (I wonder what else the Brothers Inchoroi would have done finding themselves trapped in the Ark by a sorcerous Glamour for around that first millenia). Shaeonanra (cum Shariatas) is the prodigy of his age... aside, you know, that Titirga character.


Not at all terrifying.




All true, but at times they seem to be a bit of an omnishambles. They fuck up and crash, can't resist dressing in a way that turns off their allies, can't resist sending out their trump card to fight for some reason, can't stop masturbating when facing a huge threat etc. That and the general fucked-up-ness of every one of the main guys makes you feel that they're less effective or impressively evil than they should be.


(Then you remember that they raped the world with their Tekne/Sranc monstrosities.)


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This comparison with us and bacteria is a very silly one. Bacteria doesn't even remotely resemble life as we instinctively know it. A more accurate example like I said is to use the Neanderthals. Actually, the Inchoroi were probably even closer to the Men/Nonmen than we are to the Neanderthals before they started the modification cycles. (Before you respond by saying that the Inchoroi modified themselves so that Men/Nonmen look like bacteria to them read below or what I said earlier.)

Right, so you are conceding the argument by saying this compassion is entirely dependant on the type of life in question.

One can easily have compassion for one thing and not even conceive of having it for another, solely based on what those things look like in comparison to you.

Now you just have to abandon the silly idea that the window for compassion you are defining here has rigid dimensions and, voila, the Inchoroi.

I never said that we are not capable of not showing compassion or treating other animals and humans like shit. I said that the idea that those beings should not be treated like shit is something that most humans are able to conceive of.

Not for many, many forms of life though.

The argument that since these animals have feelings, emotions, family bonds, and are even capable of showing empathy (just like we do) they should not be treated like shit, is a persuasive one to most people. EVEN if they don't start applying that concept in their daily lives or they're [not] convinced by it, they are still capable of understanding that line of reasoning, which is what everyone here is saying the Inchoroi are not capable of doing (that would only be true if the Inchoroi abandon compassion altogether, including for themselves)

But, again, you are defining this based on the criteria of "how much they are like us". Something that can be changed in how we think.

The assertion was that we cannot modify ourselves so that other beings that we already have compassion for -because they resemble us- start looking like rocks/bacteria without compromising our compassion for ourselves.

And that assertion has been shown to rely on silly and disproven supports. We are fully capable of not caring for other things not like us. You've shown nothing to indicate that it's unalterable.

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I think Hello World Alt is positing the soul holds some kind of moral compass?



Yet all evidence suggests that in the Bakkerverse this is not the case. Which is part of why the Inchies are right about their bad luck. Why didn't they feel what they were doing was wrong when they were doing it? Why don't they feel any guilt now?



Another possibility is the Hundred allow and possibly encourage mortals to sin in the hopes of fattening their larders of souls in the Outside. Which would sorta make the Inchies on the "right" side of the story.


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Because his brain is swiss cheese. That or he meant that he fought for and against the Inchoroi.

Are you saying that Bakker meant to write Inchoroi instead of No-God or that he did it on purpose to show his erraticism? (the Nonman's erraticism, not Bakker.) Because it just seems...weird.

Another thing, total crackpot/delusional: could it be that we haven't seen Aurax because he and Aurang are the same person?

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I reread the scene with Mek. There's a lot of really interesting stuff there:

- Mek lets him live, it seems, because he had already proven memorable. He is an Anasurimbor and he defeats Mek in single combat. So there was nothing to be gained by killing him; the memory was already set.

- Mek's reaction to Kellhus's introduction is to grab his cloak of faces and say that Kell reminds him of "this one." Wtf? Whose face is on the cloak? Nau-Cayuti? Celmomas?

- I had forgotten how the fight went, remembering it as fairly close, but Kell actually could have killed Mek outright. He opens his chin and disarms him, stopping short of killing only because he wants Mek to answer questions. Interestingly this probably means that Cnaiur could also have defeated the Nonman (just a random thought).

A question, though; why doesn't Kellhus see the Mark on Mek?

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A question, though; why doesn't Kellhus see the Mark on Mek?




AS I understand it you have to be an actual Schoolman? Otherwise you barely see abnormalities in the onta.



Are you saying that Bakker meant to write Inchoroi instead of No-God or that he did it on purpose to show his erraticism? (the Nonman's erraticism, not Bakker.) Because it just seems...weird.




It could be deliberate, it could be Bakker's mistake or it could be yours dunno :dunno:


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AS I understand it you have to be an actual Schoolman? Otherwise you barely see abnormalities in the onta.

But Maitha sees the Mark on Akka in TDTCB.

I think this scene [with Mek in TDTCB] might be "GoTMism"*.

*A term to describe things Erikson wrote in Gardens of the Moon that were later retconned.

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But Maitha sees the Mark on Akka in TDTCB.

I think this scene [with Mek in TDTCB] might be "GoTMism"*.

*A term to describe things Erikson wrote in Gardens of the Moon that were later retconned.

Yeah, but as I understand it a certain amount of training makes you more perceptive (and able to do minor things like move the waitha-?- doll)yet keeps you immune to Chorae. Maitha has no doubt had the benefit of such schooling from Moe. Kellhus...had no idea what magic was a few days ago.

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