Thoughts on Jon and Sansa

[Winnief]

We all would prefer Sansa to save herself at some point-fortunately I think GRRM is bringing us to that point.

safe.

Because that's totally what Sansa wants, right? :rolleyes: Her lamentations that nobody will ever marry her for love and her decision to never marry don't suggest that she wants to marry for love, if she marries at all?

See that's an central problem for Sansa. She quite naturally, (and sensibly,) doesn't want to be married for her various claims on the North and the Riverlands, (yet another reason she'll be overjoyed to get news of Rickon coming home,) but sadly, for her as someone who is arguably the most well connected noblewoman in the Seven Kingdoms, with ties to the Vale, the Riverlands, and the North, she's a juicy 'prize' for fortune hunters, and ambitious types-people who might well want to use her against her siblings, as the Lannister's tried to do. There are some who wonder if fAegon when he gets to Westeros might try the same thing.

This is one argument for Jon, as he is someone she could believe at least cares about her for reasons other than dynasty building and who she could be sure wouldn't be scheming against her relatives particularly Rickon, and would share her interest in rebuilding Winterfell and the Stark legacy.

Of course, the BEST solution might be for Sansa to meet someone worthy while she was "Alayne." Not necessarily Harry, (who sounds like Robert 2.0) but some worthy young man from a good household, of the Riverlands, Vale, or North, who would fall for her when she was presumably just a bastard to an important man, and they could marry and head North together. That might be the happiest ending for Sansa-though, not the most likely.

[Annara Snow]

We all would prefer Sansa to save herself at some point-fortunately I think GRRM is bringing us to that point.

See that's an central problem for Sansa. She quite naturally, (and sensibly,) doesn't want to be married for her various claims on the North and the Riverlands, (yet another reason she'll be overjoyed to get news of Rickon coming home,) but sadly, for her as someone who is arguably the most well connected noblewoman in the Seven Kingdoms, with ties to the Vale, the Riverlands, and the North, she's a juicy 'prize' for fortune hunters, and ambitious types-people who might well want to use her against her siblings, as the Lannister's tried to do. There are some who wonder if fAegon when he gets to Westeros might try the same thing.

Sansa is, fortunately, safe from getting married for her claim for the time being, since she's still officially married to Tyrion, who's currently the perfect husband for her, what with being on another continent and having nothing to do with her. ;) She could ask for an annulment - but only when she's not wanted for regicide anymore; and I don't think she would want to do that anyway, since it would remove her shield from other unwanted marriages to guys who wouldn't be on the other side of the world. We don't know when both those situations will be resolved, and by that time, Rickon's continued existence will probably become known more widely than it is now.

What I don't understand about the fAegon/Sansa theories is, why would fAegon want to marry Sansa, even if it were possible? He's trying to gain the Iron Throne. A hypothetical marriage to Sansa does not necessarily get him the support of the North, which is in chaos anyway, and I can't see the northern lords deciding to support some pretender's claim to the IT and offer him their armies, and march all the way to the south. He's not going to be the second coming of Robb Stark just for marrying Sansa, who everyone knows has been a hostage and used as a pawn - there would be no reason to think it's any different now.

On the other hand, marrying Arianne to secure Dorne's support is what makes the most sense politically, and we know that she's on the way to meet him in WoW and report to her father. He stands to gain the most if he manages to make a good impression on her.

[Winnief]

Oh, I agree fAegon/Arianne makes the most sense-but there had been speculation in a couple of other threads about him going for Sansa. (Though, god I hope that doesn't happen.)

since she's still officially married to Tyrion, who's currently the perfect husband for her, what with being on another continent and having nothing to do with her. ;)

Ha! That of course, is the reason GRRM, had that plot twist thrown in-it was really the only plausible way to protect Sansa later on from other arranged marriages. It's entirely possible that Tyrion will be dead by the end of ADoS, or the marriage could be annulled for any number of good reasons, but yeah, Sansa is probably safe, until Rickon-or even Jon gets declared the heir to the North.

That will NOT please LF....

[Lil' Bird]

Sansa still being manipulated by stupid little finger makes me believe that she's still looking to be saved. Anyone besides Jon, Arya, Bran or Rickon saving her or helping her will have an agenda, she may know that life is not always a song, but she's still holding hope for a little music.

If Arya or Jon knew where she was/her situation there is no doubt in my mind they'd be on the way to save her.

I can't wait for her to be close enough to a weirwood tree so Bran can "communicate" with her either.

[Lil' Bird]

LSH (Cat) not being tickled about Jon and Sansa also pleases me.

[Winnief]

LSH (Cat) not being tickled about Jon and Sansa also pleases me.

It would be a sort of 'in your face' moment against Cat...or if Jon ever did help Sansa in any sense there would be a certain irony-Robb left his sister's in captivity while Jon is the one to rescue them.

Better still might be Sansa rescuing Jon somehow-something which would have mortified her mom.

[Lil' Bird]

As long as Jon gets to have an in you face moment towards LDS. That's all I want

[Sweetgirl205]

It's funny/tragic how Sansa (who almost looks like an exact replica of younger Cat) and Jon (who's probably not even Ned's son) are most like Ned.

Also, hopefully a Jon/Sansa alliance (while Arya, Bran and Rickon are still MIA) coming up soon?

I could even see Jon and Sansa marrying. Since Jon is not Ned's son, they are at best cousins. In GOT world, that doesn't seem to be a drawback to marriage. Of course, that is assuming Jon gets off the wall in one piece and Sansa can get her first marriage annuled.

[Annara Snow]

Sansa still being manipulated by stupid little finger makes me believe that she's still looking to be saved. Anyone besides Jon, Arya, Bran or Rickon saving her or helping her will have an agenda, she may know that life is not always a song, but she's still holding hope for a little music.

What exactly is she supposed to do? She isn't being 'manipulated'... Lysa was manipulated, because Lysa had power. Sansa is simply helpless and can't do anything to get away from LF - yet. She is wanted for regicide and a bunch of people are looking to find her and send her to KL for a reward. She has to hide her identity, and she has no other family except Blackfish, who is on the run, and Jon, who is a thousand miles away at the Wall, and will be "dead" at the start of WoW. Her best bet is to bide her time, pretend to be as naive as LF thinks she is, learn from him, and try to forge good relations with the Vale lords and other people from the Vale.

Her relationship with LF at the moment was best described by someone on this forum as "emotional manipulation on both sides".

[lulu_pix]

What exactly is she supposed to do? She isn't being 'manipulated'... Lysa was manipulated, because Lysa had power. Sansa is simply helpless and can't do anything to get away from LF - yet. She is wanted for regicide and a bunch of people are looking to find her and send her to KL for a reward. She has to hide her identity, and she has no other family except Blackfish, who is on the run, and Jon, who is a thousand miles away at the Wall, and will be "dead" at the start of WoW. Her best bet is to bide her time, pretend to be as naive as LF thinks she is, learn from him, and try to forge good relations with the Vale lords and other people from the Vale.

Her relationship with LF at the moment was best described by someone on this forum as "emotional manipulation on both sides".

Actually she couldve told Royce who she was, she should know by now if royce was about to rebel to support robs war he would defintely help her. I mean I love sansa and all but this is the one thing that irritates me always about her she doesnt speak out or say something when it could actaully be very benfecial for her to do so.

[Winnief]

Actually she couldve told Royce who she was, she should know by now if royce was about to rebel to support robs war he would defintely help her. I mean I love sansa and all but this is the one thing that irritates me always about her she doesnt speak out or say something when it could actaully be very benfecial for her to do so.

Right now, she doesn't know whether Royce would help her-or turn her into Cersei. It's quite possible she might turn to Royce in the future out of desperation-or if something happens that makes her feel she can trust him.

[Annara Snow]

Actually she couldve told Royce who she was, she should know by now if royce was about to rebel to support robs war he would defintely help her. I mean I love sansa and all but this is the one thing that irritates me always about her she doesnt speak out or say something when it could actaully be very benfecial for her to do so.

How do you know that she can trust Royce or that he would definitely help her? Robb is dead. Some people who were on his side jumped ship when they realized his fortunes were turning, how would you know that someone who didn't even fight with Robb would want to protect his sister now, when the Stark cause seems lost? We don't even know if Sansa can trust Royce. We know very little about Royce in general. Why should Sansa trust him? Just because he came to Winterfell once? If she did trust him, and he turned out to be untrustworthy, you would be saying "this is what irritates me about Sansa, she's so naive and always trusts everyone!"

And Sansa "doesn't speak out or say something when it would in fact be very beneficial for her to do so"? Really? Like, when? When was the last time she didn't speak out and she should have? It seems to me that, in the last three books, she made the right decisions every time she didn't speak out, because it would only get her killed or get her in trouble, and the times she did speak out were her actual mistakes (like telling Dontos about the Tyrell marriage).

This reminds me of the Unsullied podcaster from GOO podcast who said that Arya should have told Roose Bolton who she was. (Yeah, we know how well that would have turned out...) Roose Bolton was Robb's bannerman, so why wouldn't Arya trust him, right? There was more reason for her to trust Roose, which she fortunately didn't, than for Sansa to trust Royce. The smartest thing to do is not trust anyone you know extremely little about. And Sansa is not trusting everyone these days, as she would have two years ago.

[Northernmonkey]

What I don't understand about the fAegon/Sansa theories is, why would fAegon want to marry Sansa, even if it were possible? He's trying to gain the Iron Throne. A hypothetical marriage to Sansa does not necessarily get him the support of the North, which is in chaos anyway, and I can't see the northern lords deciding to support some pretender's claim to the IT and offer him their armies, and march all the way to the south. He's not going to be the second coming of Robb Stark just for marrying Sansa, who everyone knows has been a hostage and used as a pawn - there would be no reason to think it's any different now.

Marrying Sansa makes perfect sense. The North would happily back Aegon if it meant getting rid of the Lannisters, Freys and Boltons and putting a Stark back in Winterfell.

Marrying Sansa would get Aegon the support of The North and The Riverlands (and possibly even the Vale). It makes a lot more sense than marrying Arianne, because Dorne will probably support Aegon even if he doesn't marry her.

[Winnief]

This reminds me of the Unsullied podcaster from GOO podcast who said that Arya should have told Roose Bolton who she was. (Yeah, we know how well that would have turned out...) Roose Bolton was Robb's bannerman, so why wouldn't Arya trust him, right? There was more reason for her to trust Roose, which she fortunately didn't, than for Sansa to trust Royce. The smartest thing to do is not trust anyone you know extremely little about. And Sansa is not trusting everyone these days, as she would have two years ago.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Now, to be fair, I think Royce is probably a MUCH more honorable man than Roose, (yeah-I know the bar there is set pretty low,) but still for now it makes more sense to play it safe, until we-and Sansa know more.

If it turns out that Bronze Yohn has been giving sanctuary to the Blackfish or something-then Sansa can turn to him for help.

[Lil' Bird]

What exactly is she supposed to do? She isn't being 'manipulated'... Lysa was manipulated, because Lysa had power. Sansa is simply helpless and can't do anything to get away from LF - yet. She is wanted for regicide and a bunch of people are looking to find her and send her to KL for a reward. She has to hide her identity, and she has no other family except Blackfish, who is on the run, and Jon, who is a thousand miles away at the Wall, and will be "dead" at the start of WoW. Her best bet is to bide her time, pretend to be as naive as LF thinks she is, learn from him, and try to forge good relations with the Vale lords and other people from the Vale.

Her relationship with LF at the moment was best described by someone on this forum as "emotional manipulation on both sides".

How is she manipulating LF? It is not both ways, yet.

She's trapped right now by going along with "dontos" plan by LF.

[Annara Snow]

How is she manipulating LF? It is not both ways, yet.

She's trapped right now by going along with "dontos" plan by LF.

How is LF manipulating her? She hasn't done anything out of her great trust in him, but because she has had no other choice. With him, at least she knows he won't turn her in to Cersei. If she hadn't gone with Dontos, she would have been put on trial for regicide in King's Landing.

Any manipulation that may be taking place on either side is about the emotional manipulating and the shaping of future events. LF convincing her that he's her friend and someone to trust, Sansa letting him think she's just a naive little girl he can groom into whatever he wants her to be.

Marrying Sansa makes perfect sense. The North would happily back Aegon if it meant getting rid of the Lannisters, Freys and Boltons and putting a Stark back in Winterfell.

Marrying Sansa would get Aegon the support of The North and The Riverlands (and possibly even the Vale). It makes a lot more sense than marrying Arianne, because Dorne will probably support Aegon even if he doesn't marry her.

Probably? "Probably" is not enough. He needs Dorne's support, and it's not at all that secure as you think it is, especially considering the facts that 1) they can't even be 100% sure he really is who he claims to be, and 2) there is still Dany, and the Dance of the Dragons 2.0 may very well be on the way. Dorne planned to seal the deal with Viserys and then Dany with a marriage, I don't see it going differently with Aegon.

On the other hand, I've already stated why I don't see North's support as secure even if Aegon does marry Sansa. Would they really go marching south, as they did with Robb Stark when he went to avenge Ned? Or would they just decide that they don't give a damn and don't trust some Targ pretender who's the latest to try to use Ned's daughter (it's not like they haven't seen it before) and, say, proclaim Rickon the King in the North?

[Lil' Bird]

LF is using her.

There is no way that Tywin would have allowed her to be put on trial for kingslaying. He'd have just married her off again.

I do shudder to think about how much worse she would have unintentionally made the trial for Tyrion though.

[Lil' Bird]

Can you imagine if Arya had run to Roose?

[Annara Snow]

LF is using her.

Of course he's using her. That doesn't mean he's "manipulating" her. That would imply that she has a degree of freedom and power, and that he is only using her because of his great manipulation skills. That was what he was doing with Lysa. But Sansa simply has no freedom or power to do what she wants. LF doesn't even need to "manipulate" her, nor would her thoughts on the matter change things.

There is no way that Tywin would have allowed her to be put on trial for kingslaying. He'd have just married her off again.

Even if that were the case (which I'm not so sure about - it's not like Tywin made the accusation go away), you think that being forced to marry to some Lannister cousin (and then presumably bear him a child and probably be disposed off later) would be a good thing for her?

Regardless of which, Cersei (who was in power in KL since around the same time Lysa was murdered) definitely would put her on trial and have her executed.

And who the heck knows what Kevan or whoever is in charge now does; but there is a charge of regicide over Sansa's head.

[Lil' Bird]

Of course he's using her. That doesn't mean he's "manipulating" her. That would imply that she has a degree of freedom and power, and that he is only using her because of his great manipulation skills. That was what he was doing with Lysa. But Sansa simply has no freedom or power to do what she wants. LF doesn't even need to "manipulate" her, nor would her thoughts on the matter change things.

Even if that were the case (which I'm not so sure about - it's not like Tywin made the accusation go away), you think that being forced to marry to some Lannister cousin (and then presumably bear him a child and probably be disposed off later) would be a good thing for her?

Regardless of which, Cersei (who was in power in KL since around the same time Lysa was murdered) definitely would put her on trial and have her executed.

And who the heck knows what Kevan or whoever is in charge now does; but there is a charge of regicide over Sansa's head.

Which, once she explains, Cersei would be thrilled to hear. That the queen of thrones and the little rose were responsible? I'm sure little finger loves that little trump card. We know Cersei would use Sansa to get rid of the Tyrells, even though it would lose her the kingdom.

Let's face it whoever LF gets her to marry is likely to do the exact same thing as any Lannister would have done, use her for the North.