Thoughts on Jon and Sansa

[Northernmonkey]

Aegon wouldn't. But Aegon would first have to be in the position to decide these things, which would only be after he's already won the Iron Throne. My question is, why would he go for a marriage to Sansa while he's trying to win the IT?

Aegon's already rebelling against the throne, so why does he need to wait until he wins the throne to marry Sansa?

Why would he marry Sansa when he's trying to win the IT? Well if it happens I think it will be for love, but from a strategic point of view, he will have the support of Dorne even if he doesn't marry Arianne, whereas marrying Sansa could get him the support of the North and The Riverlands.

I'm not saying it's a master-stroke, but the point remains that a marriage to Arianne isn't really necessary.

[KINGpanther]

How does that even work explain it to me.

Yeh i know it doesnt fit but maybe aegon does marry arriane but then aegon meets sansa (maybe at a tourney) and they fall in love and run away. Although aegon is likly fake in which case its silly.

[Annara Snow]

Aegon's already rebelling against the throne, so why does he need to wait until he wins the throne to marry Sansa?

Why would he marry Sansa when he's trying to win the IT? Well if it happens I think it will be for love, but from a strategic point of view, he will have the support of Dorne even if he doesn't marry Arianne, whereas marrying Sansa could get him the support of the North and The Riverlands.

I'm not saying it's a master-stroke, but the point remains that a marriage to Arianne isn't really necessary.

I'm not so sure that it's not necessary. We don't know that yet. I don't think Aegon should think of Dorne's support as something he already has in the bag. A lot depends on how his meeting with Arianne goes.

Yeh i know it doesnt fit but maybe aegon does marry arriane but then aegon meets sansa (maybe at a tourney) and they fall in love and run away. Although aegon is likly fake in which case its silly.

It's silly either way.

[KINGpanther]

Yeh i hope sansa becomes a political mastermind and gives up her dreams of love.

[The Abominable SnowOther]

Totally. Hes more like Plankton but yeah.

I ship it before i ship Jon/Dany. (im serious. Im still not on board with Jon/Sansa, but ill take it way before Jon/Dany. Any day.)

i also would take that before jon/dany. maybe some sort of love triangle would be nice

[Annara Snow]

Yeh i hope sansa becomes a political mastermind and gives up her dreams of love.

I don't hope she gives up her dreams of love. Not at all. I hope she finds a way to play the system well enough to be able to get what she wants. But it's pretty clear from her POV chapters that that the current version of Sansa Stark or Alayne Stone is a lot different from 11-year old Sansa and that she's not into pretty but arrogant and dumbassish princes. If she were, Harry the Heir seems to probably be one such (well, not a prince, but close enough). The idea of her falling for one such poor dumbass in the 6th book and having some kind of grand romance with him goes against the character development and buildup of her story so far.

i also would take that before jon/dany. maybe some sort of love triangle would be nice

LOL

Prediction: in the spirit of this thread, the next crackship someone is going to come up with will be a Sansa/Jon/Arya incestriangle. (Unless it's been done before. You never know... I'm a fanfic virgin when it comes to ASOAIF, I don't know much about that stuff.)

[para]

If Aegon refuses Arianne because she's not a virgin, he'll alienate Dorne, his main potential supporters, which would mean he's an idiot and he's not likely to be long for this world. Which is entirely possible (providing he's the one who makes that decision). He doesn't seem incredibly smart. But really, rejecting the support of Dorne in favor of a completely unsure support for the North, who could, for all we know, decide that they will have a new King in the North instead of giving their armies to some Targ pretender, would be an idiotic move. Marrying Sansa to get the North seems like something to possibly do once you've already gained and secured the IT, not while you're still fighting to gain it.

First of all, we all already know that you consider any marriage of Sansa's to a Targaryen so impossible it's practically unpossible, so... okay. We heard you. Give us what you consider the more likely alternative, so we can discuss if your insinuation that Sansa will free herself has actual merit.

Second, yes the working hypothesis on Aegon accepting Tyrion's bait to invade Westeros (after having taken his bait at the Cyvasse game and losing) is that he is an idiot. And as such, quite the type to alienate a sure ally for a Littlefinger Promise . (Which might bring actually the only untouched army of the whole 7K into play for Aegon in exchange for what could only be a betrothal, so it's not actually a bad deal.) It would also nicely mirror Rhaegar's idiocy with Lyanna (GRRM seems to be fond of that sort of parallel). That Sansa is credited with killing an "Usurper Dog" will certainly not count against her.

[Annara Snow]

First of all, we all already know that you consider any marriage of Sansa's to a Targaryen so impossible it's practically unpossible, so... okay. We heard you. Give us what you consider the more likely alternative, so we can discuss if your insinuation that Sansa will free herself has actual merit.

What, has a possible Dany/Sansa marriage been discussed? :)

I can't think of any other living Targaryens for Sansa to marry, unless you're referring to Sansa's brother, and I don't think the Starks are into incest... so I have no idea what you're referring to. Aegon isn't really a Targaryen, so that's a moot point.

[Blugenes]

Dorne is likely to join Aegon regardless of whether he marries (his cousin?) Arienne or not. They want Lannister blood in payment for Elia and her daughter (and son?). Aegon could potentially marry Sansa and have some claim to control of the Riverlands, Vale, and North. It also means he could install a loyalist family to the Vale and possibly the Riverlands, with Rickon's emergence in the North it means he could also act as a regent and potentially mold the child into a loyal supporter. Marrying Arienne only cements an existing alliance, marrying Sansa would bring neutral or potentially hostile parties much closer or even into his camp.

[para]

What, has a possible Dany/Sansa marriage been discussed? :)

I can't think of any other living Targaryens for Sansa to marry, unless you're referring to Sansa's brother, and I don't think the Starks are into incest... so I have no idea what you're referring to. Aegon isn't really a Targaryen, so that's a moot point.

Aegon claims to be a Targaryen (and only attentive readers suspected him to be of the bastard Targaryen line) and if R+L=J then Jon is only Sansa's cousin and belongs to a family who is indeed totally, completely into sibling incest.

You evaded my question though, which shows me that you just hang around here to nay-say, not to be constructive.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Both Jon and Sansa are "shiped" with everyone and their third cousins too. That's an other trait they share...

[Annara Snow]

Aegon claims to be a Targaryen (and only attentive readers suspected him to be of the bastard Targaryen line) and if R+L=J then Jon is only Sansa's cousin and belongs to a family who is indeed totally, completely into sibling incest.

First off, Aegon claims to be a Targaryen; Jon doesn't think he is a Targaryen. He has no idea about his parentage, and even if he did know, I doubt he would consider himself a "Targaryen" rather than a "Stark". There are just as many hints that Aegon is fake as that R+L=J, and these are both theories. So, you can't count them both as Targaryens. Either Aegon is, because he believes he is, or Jon is, because he is by blood.

As for the second, I've already thoroughly debunked all your arguments and I'm bored with this discussion. People who were brought up as siblings and considered each other siblings all their lives = siblings. A brother and a sister don't decide to hook up because they've just found out they are biologically 'just' cousins, it doesn't work like that. And Jon isn't going to change his personality and beliefs and decide that he's a Targ and therefore totally into incest. Your upbringing is what determines you values, not your DNA (not that Jon isn't a Stark by his DNA - he is), and Jon wouldn't give a shit about what Targaryens consider OK or not OK.

Can we move on, please? I'm really not interested in non-canon crackships, but you're perfectly allowed to like them. It just boggles my mind why you're determined to prove that they're likely to happen in canon.

You evaded my question though, which shows me that you just hang around here to nay-say, not to be constructive.

Why would I give you an alternative marriage for Sansa? Who says I want Sansa to get married at all? And what does that have to do with anything? We were discussing Aegon's reasons for marrying Sansa, not the other way round, and I named the alternative: Arianne. On Sansa's part, she doesn't want to be married for political reasons and is sick and tired of being auctioned off to various douches. But nobody has been claiming that she would want to marry Aegon, did they? It was simply assumed that LF would make her. So, what are we discussing here?

[Annara Snow]

Dorne is likely to join Aegon regardless of whether he marries (his cousin?) Arienne or not. They want Lannister blood in payment for Elia and her daughter (and son?). Aegon could potentially marry Sansa and have some claim to control of the Riverlands, Vale, and North. It also means he could install a loyalist family to the Vale and possibly the Riverlands, with Rickon's emergence in the North it means he could also act as a regent and potentially mold the child into a loyal supporter. Marrying Arienne only cements an existing alliance, marrying Sansa would bring neutral or potentially hostile parties much closer or even into his camp.

We know that, at the start of WoW, (spoilers for sample chapters)

Arianne is on her way to meet Aegon, sent by her father to get a scoop on him and whether he's the real deal.

Would there really be such a storyline if Aegon already had Dorne's support in the bag? Seems like a waste of time and pages, doesn't it? Doran is far too smart to buy the idea that this guy is definitely Aegon; or, say maybe he doesn't care if Aegon is real, but he wants to know that this guy is someone capable and worth supporting, or, alternatively, someone Dorne can have control over.

[Blugenes]

It still makes for an interesting storyline much the same way as watching two poker players try to win a hand when we know one already has the cards to do it. Doran is a schemer but also an opportunist, and it looks like Doran is likely to work against the Tyrells and Lannisters anyway. He might react to a slight against his daughter being made queen but is it enough to stop him from rallying troops against the Tyrells and the Lannisters if he gets the chance? I doubt it.

[Bratchild]

I think it is possible that Doran ends up dying to all of the recent heartbreak,(losing both his brother and his son has to hurt).And Arianne,while not stupid,is also impulsive and may see it as a way of pulling one over Dany should Aagon marry her.

I would like to see any interaction between Aagon and Sansa,if only to see how much Sansa has grown.It would amaze me though to see the whole Targ prince choosing a Stark maiden over his Martell wife.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Isn't this a "Thoughts on Jon and Sansa" thread, not a "what if Aegon and Sansa marry" thread or an "is Aegon going to marry Arianne" thread?

[The Wolves]

Aegon claims to be a Targaryen (and only attentive readers suspected him to be of the bastard Targaryen line) and if R+L=J then Jon is only Sansa's cousin and belongs to a family who is indeed totally, completely into sibling incest.

I don't like how just because Jon might be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son his brotherly relationship to the other Starks are dismissed and automatically put in the "cousin" category.

Even if he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's biological son does not dismiss his relationship and bond to the other Stark children. Jon is still Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon's brother and still Ned Starks' son, that doesn't change.

Sorry about the rant it's just that I grew up with my cousins and we were all adopted by our grandparents and it just bugs when people dismiss brother and sister bonds because they weren't born to the same parents

[Bratchild]

Isn't this a "Thoughts on Jon and Sansa" thread, not a "what if Aegon and Sansa marry" thread or an "is Aegon going to marry Arianne" thread?

True.I allowed myself to get sidetracked so apologies about that.

[Annara Snow]

I don't like how just because Jon might be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son his brotherly relationship to the other Starks are dismissed and automatically put in the "cousin" category.

Even if he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's biological son does not dismiss his relationship and bond to the other Stark children. Jon is still Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon's brother and still Ned Starks' son, that doesn't change.

Sorry about the rant it's just that I grew up with my cousins and we were all adopted by our grandparents and it just bugs when people dismiss brother and sister bonds because they weren't born to the same parents

:agree:

[para]

Can we move on, please? I'm really not interested in non-canon crackships...

Helpful hint: You you aren't then stop posting in a thread about one, trying to prove in vain (You aren't GRRM, right?) that it can never ever happen. Especially to people like me that merely like to point out that trying to call something impossible in ASOIAF, especially if you aren't GRRM, is annoyingly presumptive.

For what is worth, I think what the character want in ASOIAF is absolutely secondary to the story that GRRM wants to tell about them. Even the character who supposedly have the freedom of choice stumble and fail over a variety of things... some of them so unfair and incidental that they are practically a deus ex machina, others completely deserved consequences of their own actions. Whether Sansa still wants a prince, or marriage or anything will play no role in determining whether she will get her wish. Her acting on her wishes to escape such fate might even bring it closer. The Red Wedding was as an appeasement gesture to the Freys. It was supposed to void losing the war by losing them as allies. But instead... you know the story. Ned wanted to help Robert and the realm by being his Hand. Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion, Cersei trying to escape her prophecy, Dany trying to cure Drogo... In ASOIAF, all choices, no matter how well-intented and reasoned, can come back to not merely haunt you. GRRM regularly takes characters' choices and winds a pretty rope from them, so they can hang themselves with it.

As such it is completely irrelevant to base speculation or negation of future plot lines merely on the idea that characters would not choose something. Not when there is an ending that has to be gotten to and it requires things to happen, things to be written. And if it's "out of character" for these things to be choices, then GRRM will find a way to make it happen anyway. And if these things are distasteful to readers, like Jeyne Poole's entire ADWD storyline, or Dany/Drogo being considered romantic, or suffering being described in loving detail... Well, I am sure GRRM will be care because... No, he won't.

So that non-canon crackship, you so don't care about that you have argue on and on about it never ever happening, is as likely as any other unlikely thing: Cersei becoming a good person, Stannis becoming a one-man comedy troupe, Davos being the Great Other, the dragons ending up doing nothing. But technically, all these things could happen. To argue fervently against them as if it was a personal slight that people out there entertain the idea that Cersei might reconsider her actions, that Stannis might wake up to the fact that he has a very dry sort of humor, that Davos' goodness is just an elaborate cover, that the dragons are the greatest red herring ever... is such a waste of time. Especially for someone who claims not to be interested in it in the first place.

You can't talk out of two sides of your mouth here. Either you care and own up to it and then reason it better than "choices" and "absolutely impossible because I said so" or you don't care and prove it by stop being the person who alone is responsible for 50 percent of this thread.