Thoughts on Jon and Sansa

[Mourneblade]

And yet, in that moment she hesitated long enough for Sandor to realize the danger Joff was in, and place himself between them. She allowed the moment slip.

If this was an inaction in and of itself, we could let it slip, but this is one of many in a long line, a pattern of indecisiveness and inaction.

[Queen Alienor]

Wow awesome job being a Sansa apologist.

First she wanted to kill Joffery? Well she had that chance when Joffery introduced her to Spiked Ned... Every other Stark in that situation would have gladly sacrificed themselves in that moment..

Left KL at her first opportunity? I guess Sandor offering to help her escape at the battle of Blackwater bay was just imagined by Sansa and all of us readers.

Proactively betrays Joffery? You mean breaking down under pressure and scrutiny...

Sandor nails it exactly when he keeps referring to her as "Little Bird" because so far that is all she has shown us.

Parallel Arya's captivity in Harrenhal, where she was in far more danger of dying than Sansa ever was, to Sansa's captivity in KL. Arya works to learn the personality and habits of everyone around her, even at the risk of getting beaten or killed, so that she can use that information to stay alive AND escape. She is taking an active role in her destiny, she is making a STAND for right or wrong. Don't get me wrong, she makes some poor decisions, but she self reflects, and understands her mistakes to learn from them.

Sansa on the other hand only understands the people around her on a superficial level. Her self reflection is only skin deep. She never acknowledges or takes responsibility for her mistakes or actions, and as a result of that continues to make the same mistakes. It always someone else s fault. It is one thing to be a victim, and another thing to be a slave to your victimization. She is blind to the monster Joff is until he snips Ned's Head off. She is blind to Cersei's nature. She has yet to make a STAND on anything she believes in. She continues to be a victim of circumstance with Littlefinger, you know the guy, who kill Dontos and her Aunt right in front of her, and yet continues to place her trust in him, even though he has proven to her he is a liar. Once again Sansa is blind to all the Warning Bells that should be going off in her head.

She has no plan, and until she makes one, has a moment of clarity where she finally admits to herself and takes responsibility for her own actions and learns from her prior mistakes, and until she makes a stand on what she believes in, she will continue to be the Victim.

Why does every thread that features Sansa evolve into this? I mean, this thread was supposed to discuss the similarities between Sansa and Jon, and not to fight wether Sansa is good or evil.

Honestly, I think people have unrealistic expectations of a preteen girl who is hostage, gets abused and had to witness her fathers death.

First, I'm not sure wether for example Bran wouldn't have gone for the clever way of not commiting suicide. You know that Joffrey death would not have changed anything, don't you? He never made any real political or strategical decision. It was his grandfather who did the war, his uncle and mother who did the politics.

Second, a guy scares you, puts a knife to your throat, is totally drunk... and you ask him to bring out of the city. Of course. I wouldn't, just saying.

Sansa is not Arya. She's just not. Sansa is not someone who fights physically. Sansa is the girl I think quite a few readers once were (at least she is very close to the girl I was). She hopes, she dreams. Nobody argues that she is a victim, but it seems people don't realize that she learns. Take her AGOT chapters and than read her AFFC POVs. If you really tell me that you don't see a difference, you must read different books than I did.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Why does every thread that features Sansa evolve into this? I mean, this thread was supposed to discuss the similarities between Sansa and Jon, and not to fight wether Sansa is good or evil.

Honestly, I think people have unrealistic expectations of a preteen girl who is hostage, gets abused and had to witness her fathers death.

First, I'm not sure wether for example Bran wouldn't have gone for the clever way of not commiting suicide. You know that Joffrey death would not have changed anything, don't you? He never made any real political or strategical decision. It was his grandfather who did the war, his uncle and mother who did the politics.

Second, a guy scares you, puts a knife to your throat, is totally drunk... and you ask him to bring out of the city. Of course. I wouldn't, just saying.

Sansa is not Arya. She's just not. Sansa is not someone who fights physically. Sansa is the girl I think quite a few readers once were (at least she is very close to the girl I was). She hopes, she dreams. Nobody argues that she is a victim, but it seems people don't realize that she learns. Take her AGOT chapters and than read her AFFC POVs. If you really tell me that you don't see a difference, you must read different books than I did.

:agree: You are so very right...

On the OP, an other instance where they display similarities is Jon's Skirling Pass / Sansa's descent escaping the Red Keep with Dontos: one step, and then another, and I will not fall...

However, I believe that their arcs, inspite of the numerous parallels, are sort of "reverse". Sansa's story is, I think, a path to maturity. During her path she will play a role / influence the big scheme of things but this is not the purpose of the character; I believe (or hope) that Sansa's "destiny" is happiness, on a more individual level. Jon is also becoming more mature, but this is not what his story is about; the purpose of the character is to become the "hero", his individual development must serve the needs of the big picture.

(I 'm not sure I made my point but I can't express this any better).

[Marillon]

Jesus, why do people even suggest shit like Jon and Sansa? *barf*

He can do much better, disgusting creepy factor aside.

[Mladen]

Wow awesome job being a Sansa apologist.

No, that is called being a book reader.

First she wanted to kill Joffery? Well she had that chance when Joffery introduced her to Spiked Ned... Every other Stark in that situation would have gladly sacrificed themselves in that moment..

As she wanted, but she was interrupted. I believe Arya had a very same urge in front of Sept of Baelor, but was stopped by Yoren and taken out of the city. Of course, the situations are perfectly comparable, so I imagine we can say that girl had the same thought process.

Left KL at her first opportunity? I guess Sandor offering to help her escape at the battle of Blackwater bay was just imagined by Sansa and all of us readers.

Dontos' letter came first. Dontos introduced himself as Sansa's ally in her second chapter in ACOK, and Sandor offered escape, drunk, traumatized as he was at the end of ACOK. So, Dontos' offer came first, which means that she indeed grabbed the first offer she had.

Proactively betrays Joffery? You mean breaking down under pressure and scrutiny...

Actually no. She hasn't been broken, as much as she willingly told them what she wanted. At the end of ACOK, in the Throne room, Sansa pitied Margaery, and after they showed her courtesy, she willingly told them what they wanted to know. Yes, they wanted a truth and they was keen to find it, but I believe she could also have kept her mouth shut. She didn't. She told Margaery the truth about him, and was very much worried about her at the first several chapters in ASOS. I believe that is called compassion.

Sandor nails it exactly when he keeps referring to her as "Little Bird" because so far that is all she has shown us.

Yes, interestingly she is very good at repeating the lies. Thus we seen her tricking one of the most intelligent characters in ASOIAF, manipulating Joffrey in more than one occasion. Sandor angrily expressed his opinion, because that is what Sansa at the beginning of AGOT is. A child thought on way of life, unknowing what life truly bears. I imagine we know whom to blame for that.

Parallel Arya's captivity in Harrenhal, where she was in far more danger of dying than Sansa ever was, to Sansa's captivity in KL. Arya works to learn the personality and habits of everyone around her, even at the risk of getting beaten or killed, so that she can use that information to stay alive AND escape. She is taking an active role in her destiny, she is making a STAND for right or wrong. Don't get me wrong, she makes some poor decisions, but she self reflects, and understands her mistakes to learn from them.

And Sansa hasn't done the same. She took active role in her escape the moment she escaped her room under all the fear and pressure she was. She made a STAND several times with Joffrey, first at the end of ACOK when she was slapped for the first time, then about Dontos' life, then at the night of Blackwater Bay, at her wedding... Sansa made a stand as much as she could. Arya was in danger, I get that, and she was constantly being in various forms punished, but Sansa was under the constant threat of being physically and sexually abused.

Sansa on the other hand only understands the people around her on a superficial level. Her self reflection is only skin deep. She never acknowledges or takes responsibility for her mistakes or actions, and as a result of that continues to make the same mistakes. It always someone else s fault. It is one thing to be a victim, and another thing to be a slave to your victimization.

This is hysterical... I guess when Tyrion admits Sansa knew him way better isn't enough proof of her ability to see people. Or the fact that on the night of Battle of Blackwater, she gave Sandor exactly what he really needed - basically a shoulder to cry on, a song about mercy. She calmed him down and basically nurtured until he left. She admits what fool she was to have trusted Joffrey and Cersei, and she has been rather suspicious to LF, but she had no choice. And let we see, why should she mourn Dontos whom after she saved life, sold her to the first person? Certainly, she is not the smartest person in KL by far, but she is unprotected 13 year-old girl who has to survive in those circumstances. Playing dumb is sometimes the best option.

She has no plan, and until she makes one, has a moment of clarity where she finally admits to herself and takes responsibility for her own actions and learns from her prior mistakes, and until she makes a stand on what she believes in, she will continue to be the Victim.

She is a victim. Any woman who was beaten and sexually assaulted felt as victim once. And now this 13 year-old girl is facing the Machiavellian sinister mastermind who was able to trick almost everybody around himself, to cause a war where thousands died. She hasn't a plan because at the moment she doesn't need one. Her family is apparently dead, and just like Arya, she wants to make another home, to start a new life. Interestingly both girls did that on damage of their identity, but even more interestingly they are both constantly reminded who they are. It seems that being a Stark is something you do not forget or abandon that easily. And no matter what machinations and persuasions are at hand, that identity is still very much alive in both girls.

[Mladen]

Why does every thread that features Sansa evolve into this? I mean, this thread was supposed to discuss the similarities between Sansa and Jon, and not to fight wether Sansa is good or evil.

I am so sorry, SansaSnow... Unfortunately for you thread, I couldn't restrain myself and not do what I usually do when Sansa bashing is in question. I am so sorry for derailment of this thread, and I hope we can move on to a better discussion.

However, I believe that their arcs, inspite of the numerous parallels, are sort of "reverse". Sansa's story is, I think, a path to maturity. During her path she will play a role / influence the big scheme of things but this is not the purpose of the character; I believe (or hope) that Sansa's "destiny" is happiness, on a more individual level. Jon is also becoming more mature, but this is not what his story is about; the purpose of the character is to become the "hero", his individual development must serve the needs of the big picture.

(I 'm not sure I made my point but I can't express this any better).

Hmmm, interestingly... I would say perhaps, but I see great Elizabeth I parallels in Sansa's story, so I am not certain whether Sansa's story will end up in being 100% happy (cheesy to say, but we have that bittersweet ending), for I see the same cross of duty on her back as it once was on Ned... This really needs a deep thinking...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Hmmm, interestingly... I would say perhaps, but I see great Elizabeth I parallels in Sansa's story, so I am not certain whether Sansa's story will end up in being 100% happy (cheesy to say, but we have that bittersweet ending), for I see the same cross of duty on her back as it once was on Ned... This really needs a deep thinking...

Is Elisabeth I the one called "the virgin queen"? If so, this would be a sad ending...

When I say happiness, i don't imagine a fairy tale kind of happiness, but a more real version. One can't be happy happy happy all the time (unless they are permanently stoned :) ). I mean a life built on informed choices, knowing what she really wants and what she can get and what she might have to sacrifice to get it, but nonetheless not so far from what she dreams and hopes.

[John Hulboy]

Go Mladen I like your posts .you know ur stuff.

[Mladen]

Is Elisabeth I the one called "the virgin queen"? If so, this would be a sad ending...

When I say happiness, i don't imagine a fairy tale kind of happiness, but a more real version. One can't be happy happy happy all the time (unless they are permanently stoned :) ). I mean a life built on informed choices, knowing what she really wants and what she can get and what she might have to sacrifice to get it, but nonetheless not so far from what she dreams and hopes.

Yes, Elizabeth is a Virgin Queen... And I imagine that would be rather sad ending for Sansa. BTW, one of my theories for her was that she ends up being Lady of House Stark of Harrenhal, so we might see several figures intersecting in her story.

Well, I think we want (or at least I want, and you think :)) the same for Sansa. For her to be able to shape her own future into whatever she wants. If that is reign by sacrificing some something, fine, and if that is a life as a commoner with man who loves her, well, I would support even that. All in all, I am pro choice (I know how it sounds).

Go Mladen I like your posts .you know ur stuff.

Don't know whether this is irony or not, but I am taking the compliment and thanking you for saying that

[para]

.

And Westermarck effect has nothing to do with biology, and everything to do with psychology.

No, actually the Westermarck Effect is a form of imprinting and as such has everything to do with biology, since it isn't limited to humans as psychology tends to be. Little ducks imprint on their mothers and follow her. And if they mistake a dog for their mom in a critical point of their development, you can take the cutest photos ever, no psychology needed. The WE works in a similar way - at a certain point in your development you imprint the children you grow up at close range as siblings and forevermore unattractive.

But there are no studies that define "close range" or that answer definitely questions about age gaps. If GRRM wants to work around the incest taboo as biological imperative, he just needs to fudge with the Stark family backstory enough make it look like the siblings in questions weren't actually around each other at a young age.

Not since he needs to since....

I don't think you get what good fiction means. It means that, if Jon and Sansa were supposed to have incestuous feelings for each other, leading to a big romance, the author would have set it up. He never did. Jon and Sansa think of each other as siblings and have zero sexual/romantic thoughts and feelings about each other. It makes zero sense for them to suddenly decide they want to hook up because they learned that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Nothing in their respective storylines and characterizations suggests anything like that. It sounds like very bad fanfiction, or very bad fiction by an author who doesn't know the first thing about human psyche and about writing psychologically convincing characters

Who says that GRRM is writing good fiction? Or fiction that you define as good? Who says that a Jon/Sansa pairing would be romantically motivated to hook up? Who says that all that never-ending Targ and Lannister incest in ASOIAF isn't a set-up for an incestuous ending? Who says that Jon's thing for redheads isn't foreshadowing?

You are. But those assumptions are already speculative, let alone the conclusion you draw from them. If you declare something impossible because you perceive ASOIAF as something where things cannot happen because it is unrelentingly psychologically sound and wholesome work of fiction... Then I am sorry to break it to you, but ASOIAF is fiction in more than one way. It's not just dragons and zombies, no, sometimes things happen because GRRM wants them to happen even though they are insufficiently foreshadowed and have little psychological bases. Sometimes they are even badly written. Fat pink mast.

[Winnief]

to sacrifice to get it, but nonetheless not so far from what she dreams and hopes.

Yes, Elizabeth is a Virgin Queen... And I imagine that would be rather sad ending for Sansa. BTW, one of my theories for her was that she ends up being Lady of House Stark of Harrenhal, so we might see several figures intersecting in her story.

Well, I think we want (or at least I want, and you think :)) the same for Sansa. For her to be able to shape her own future into whatever she wants. If that is reign by sacrificing some something, fine, and if that is a life as a commoner with man who loves her, well, I would support even that. All in all, I am pro choice (I know how it sounds).

Well, I think that's where Sansa's story arc is ultimately leading-to when she finally for good or for evil, takes her fate in her own hands. Probably to finally get away from LF...

And yeah, a Virgin Queen scenario would be sad for her. She always wanted a husband and children of her own-she's almost made for it really in terms of temperament, but her duty/fate could lie elsewhere, with her having to Rule as a Single Woman for the sake of stability, while finding an suitable distant relation to be the Heir, as Elizabeth I did with James...

[Florina Laufeyson]

But Sansa and Jon's mentality is to think they are brother and sister(though half)I don't think they would get down like that, there feelings are strictly brotherly/sisterly

Most likely. Anything is better than Jon/Dany though. Thats ewwie. Knowing Jon, hes going to take pains to ensure Sansa has a future. Hes the kind of guy to take her choices into account. I think theres some little foreshadowing in that with Alys Karstark. Alys came to Jon to plead against a marriage she didnt want. Sounds...familiar...doesnt it? Sansa has expressed inwardly that she wishes to choose her man, not have someone make a marriage for her she didnt approve of. Hmmm.

Go Mladen I like your posts .you know ur stuff.

I wish i shared your enthusiasm.

[Winnief]

Knowing Jon, hes going to take pains to ensure Sansa has a future. Hes the kind of guy to take her choices into account. I think theres some little foreshadowing in that with Alys Karstark. Alys came to Jon to plead against a marriage she didnt want. Sounds...familiar...doesnt it? Sansa has expressed inwardly that she wishes to choose her man, not have someone make a marriage for her she didnt approve of. Hmmm.

I like that theory! Perhaps letting Sansa marry some nice, young, nobleman from a lesser-yet still important House, (probably a Northern bannerman) of good character, who she genuinely likes and thinks she can at least learn to love.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thanks, dear. Cersei and Robert killed Lady, but it was undoubtedly LF who killed Ned... Ned was a victim of much sinister and serious game than it appears...

That early? IDK, I think it's more possible that we see the great wolf pack reunion in ADOS. Sansa needs to clear out LF and entire Vale situation, Jon needs to be revived, and Arya needs to get out of Braavos. I imagine Rickon would be the first to arrive in Winterfell, and then Jon, Sansa and lastly Arya would follow. I doubt Bran will ever be back in any other form than as a tree.

Yea i remembered it was actually LF behind Neds death later on in the day, but as we had a guest I couldn't indulge my westeros forum addiction. I was a good host I didn't even check my phone. :wideeyed:

Yes I do think it will the TWOW but think it will be the close of the book.

With them moving forward as a family in ADOS.

I honestly have no clue for Bran, most characters I have a feeling of where its going. Not him though..

[Sansa_Stark]

i just remembered that i would like a pod x sansa shipping

a rare person who has shown attraction to sansa and isnt a total creeper about it

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I 'd like to elaborate a little bit on why I think that Sansa's story will finish towards the sweet end of the bittersweet spectrum.

First, not all characters will have a "uniformally" bittersweet ending. [eta: "Someone needed to find some joy somewhere". That's from Jon's thoughts on Tormund's daughter, but it should apply to the end of the story, too.] For some it will be indeed bittersweet, for some it will be totally sad (deservedly or not), but there must be a few that end up happy.

Sansa's character is more suited for a happy ending. She is adaptable, she can let go of things, which is important because one can't be happy if he/she can't let the bitter past behind, she can appreciate the little joys of life even when life is pretty hard on her, and, finally, her aspirations are not impossible or unreachable. She wants to be loved for herself. She's been used for her claim, yes, but, she is lovable. It's against all odds that no one, ever, won't see past her claim to appreciate her as a person...

She has all it takes to create a loving family, and truly, seeing how she treats Sweetrobin (encouraging him, taking out the best of him - irrespectively of his final fate), I think it would be such a waste not to have children of her own. It would be something that she would regret if her fate were to be alone.

[Annara Snow]

Is Elisabeth I the one called "the virgin queen"? If so, this would be a sad ending...

She was known as the Virgin Queen because she never married (a smart choice, since she would have been giving a man power over herself if she did; and the men she is thought to have fancied were not highborn enough for her to marry. anyway). It doesn't have to mean that she really was a virgin. ;)

No, actually the Westermarck Effect is a form of imprinting and as such has everything to do with biology

No, actually it's not.

The Westermarck effect, or reverse sexual imprinting, is a hypothetical psychological effect through which people who live in close domestic proximity during the first few years of their lives become desensitized to later sexual attraction. . This phenomenon, one explanation for the incest taboo, was first hypothesized by Finnish anthropologist Edvard Westermarck in his book The History of Human Marriage (1891).

Written by The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica

Edward Westermarck, in full Edward Alexander Westermarck (born Nov. 20, 1862, Helsinki, Fin.—died Sept. 3, 1939, Lapinlahti), Finnish sociologist, philosopher, and anthropologist who denied the widely held view that early humans had lived in a state of promiscuity and instead theorized that the original form of human sexual attachment had been monogamy. He asserted that primitive marriage was rooted in the needs of the nuclear family, which he considered to be the fundamental and universal unit of society.

Westermarck was a lecturer in sociology at the University of Helsinki (1890–1906) and then professor of moral philosophy (1906–18) and professor of philosophy at the Åbo Academy (1918–30). He also was professor of sociology at the University of London (1907–30). Westermarck helped introduce the work of Adam Smith, Herbert Spencer, and other British thinkers into Finland.

In psychology and ethology, imprinting is any kind of phase-sensitive learning (learning occurring at a particular age or a particular life stage) that is rapid and apparently independent of the consequences of behavior. It was first used to describe situations in which an animal or person learns the characteristics of some stimulus, which is therefore said to be "imprinted" onto the subject. Imprinting is hypothesized to have a critical period.

, since it isn't limited to humans as psychology tends to be.

*ahem*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_psychology

But there are no studies that define "close range" or that answer definitely questions about age gaps. If GRRM wants to work around the incest taboo as biological imperative, he just needs to fudge with the Stark family backstory enough make it look like the siblings in questions weren't actually around each other at a young age.

And that sums up the flaws in logical thinking that you're indulging in.

"If GRRM wants to write this completely absurd thing that hasn't been foreshadowed or set up in any way and that goes against the established characterization and interpersonal dynamics of the characters, he just needs to retcon a bunch of stuff in a really convoluted manner. Therefore it's perfectly plausible it will happen. Even though there's no sign whatsoever that this is what GRRM wants to do."

Who says that GRRM is writing good fiction? Or fiction that you define as good? Who says that a Jon/Sansa pairing would be romantically motivated to hook up?

I do.

Who says that Jon's thing for redheads isn't foreshadowing?

Of hooking up with Melinsandre?

Red hair =/= auburn hair.

Then I am sorry to break it to you, but ASOIAF is fiction in more than one way. It's not just dragons and zombies, no, sometimes things happen because GRRM wants them to happen even though they are insufficiently foreshadowed and have little psychological bases. Sometimes they are even badly written. Fat pink mast.

"Fiction in more than one way"? :lol: What the heck does that mean?It seems you're having a bit of problem with semantics.

What does Sam thinking of his penis as a fat pink mast have to do with anything? Sam's relationship with Gilly had been heavily set up over multiple books before they had sex, as was Sam's awkwardness (he totally would see his penis as a fat pink mast, especially when travelling by a ship). Do you have an actual example of something that's badly foreshadowed and psychologically improbable that has happened?

I'll never understand why some people think that "well GRRM can write that if he wants to!" will make a good replacement fro a convincing argument that they don't have. Unless you have some inside information that GRRM will write this specific absurd thing you're advocating, how does that help your argument in any way?! If you're saying "well, he can do ANYTHING", why are you so hung up over this particular thing you came up with? Why are you even discussing possible plot developments?

If someone said that they think the series will end with Cersei marrying a resurrected Ned and traveling into the future to summon space Nazis so they'll defeat the Others, would you say "Well that can happen! GRRM will write it if he wants to!" :D

[WakeTheDragon]

While rereading the series, I realised that Jon's and Sansa's arcs show some interesting parallels. There are some overall themes that they share when you look closer.

Let's start with the beginning.

In early AGOT, Sansa and Jon seem as different as you can get. They are on opposite sides of the social ladder, her the daughter of a Lord Paramount and bethrothed to the crown prince, him the bastard that goes to the Wall. She is absolutely comfortable with her place in the world, while he has a huge problem with the stigma of bastardy and tries constantly to prove that he is just as good as his trueborn brothers.

Yet, both of them share a belief in fairy tales and songs they heard growing up. He believes in the tales of heroic kings and knights, for example Dareon I is said to be his hero, while Sansa loves stories about love and knights saving the innocent lady. They share a naivety that sets them apart to the people they will meet at their destinations. Sansa at court is blinded by the smiles and false friendship, while nobody at the Wall bothers to pretend anything. Jon gets his awakening about the truth of the situation at the Wall much sooner than Sansa. He is surrounded by rough people, not the heroes he thought he'd meet. His disillusionment mirrors Sansa's later when she sees her father beheaded. Both have to navigate in places that are much different from home.

Sansa saving Dontos parallels Jon helping Sam in a way. Dontos and Sam are both people who mean nothing to Jon and Sansa, they don't know them. Both Dontos and Sam aren't what is expected of them, a drunken knight and a bookish heir, and both Jon and Sansa help them out of instinct. Both make sure the ones they saved aren't harassed further, Jon by bringing his fellow recruits to leave Sam alone and Sansa by suggesting that Dontos should be a fool, thus preventing him from ever being taken serious again, which is a protection of sorts. Both Dontos and Sam feel indebted to Jon and Sansa afterwards, while Sam becomes Jon's best friend, Dontos tries to save Sansa.

As another parallel stands out the moment were Cersei flees from the room during the Battle of Blackwater, where Sansa calms down the ladies, and Jon's "They cannot pass" moment on the Wall. Both of them act out of instinct again, they don't think about what they say, and it has similar effects on the people that listen. Sansa calms down the women and gives them hope, while Jon too gives the men hope that they can win this battle. Both of them act as leaders here, without realising it, maybe, but Sansa acts as the queen in this moment, while Jon acts as a commander, maybe even the Lord Commander here.

Both of them draw strength from the cold and the weirwoods, Jon always has while Sansa learns to during her story.

Her becoming Alayne Stone is interesting because she is provided with a whole new world view. She has to take a step back and see how the world is for people who aren't the daughter of a high lord, which is a bit like when Jon came to the Wall, because while he has always been a bastard, he does feel superior to the recruits there. Only when he lets go of this superiority feeling he is able to make friends, like Sansa, who eventually accepts that her new, lower status is a protection. I always read her AFFC line about it being the first time in ages that she thought of him a bit like Ned's line in the first book that it was the first time in years he thought of Rhaegar, which we know not to be true. I think Sansa has unconciously been basing her Alayne Stone persona on Jon. She thinks of being bastard brave, and the only bastard she knows is Jon. She does not know wether to dance at the feast, but it seems like dancing is something that women of all station like, so why should Alayne Stone be the exception? We know from ADWD, that Jon doesn't like dancing. That could be the answer to why Sansa isn't sure. Also, she makes Alayne Stone 14 years old, conveniently the age Jon was when she last saw him.

Both of them wanted the nice aspects of ruling, Jon the prestige (and maybe the finale being equal to Robb) of being Lord Commander as he jokes with Tyrion and Sansa the ability to make Arya be nice to her and the other perks of being queen. Yet, when they face the ugly reality, they step down from their goals. Sansa just wants to go home, while Jon has been forced into command, but only wants to fight the Others and doesn't give two shits about others opinions of him anymore.

To me, Sansa and Jon are the two of the Stark kids that are most like Ned with their firm set of morals and that certain naivety they show.

Thoughts?

Excellent post. Got me thinking. Some great parallels I certainly didn't pick up on.

[Lil' Bird]

If Jon turns out to be Jon Targaryen, then I want him to marry Sansa. They never really had that sibling relationship anyway, and Jon would marry her to keep her safe.

My view on Sansa and Jon as the most like Ned, is that they all believe that people will do what's honorable, their duty, even though time and experience has proven that not to be the case. I love the character of Sansa because she's so innocent. She believes that a knight will step up and save her because she's been told her entire life that's how it happens. Jon learns that maybe the Night's Watch is not as honorable as he thought, does he decide not to take the vows? No he decides to bring honor back to the Nights watch.

I don't know how GRRM could swing Jon walking away from the NW and make me believe he would forsake his vow, but I want it to happen. If someone is going to save Sansa, I want it to be Jon, someone who she can trust not to just want to use her as a pond in the game

[Annara Snow]

If Jon turns out to be Jon Targaryen, then I want him to marry Sansa. They never really had that sibling relationship anyway, and Jon would marry her to keep her safe.

Because that's totally what Sansa wants, right? :rolleyes: Her lamentations that nobody will ever marry her for love and her decision to never marry don't suggest that she wants to marry for love, if she marries at all?

My view on Sansa and Jon as the most like Ned, is that they all believe that people will do what's honorable, their duty, even though time and experience has proven that not to be the case. I love the character of Sansa because she's so innocent. She believes that a knight will step up and save her because she's been told her entire life that's how it happens.

No, actually she doesn't believe that anymore. She believed that when she was 11 going on 12. Now she understands much better how the world works.

I don't know how GRRM could swing Jon walking away from the NW and make me believe he would forsake his vow, but I want it to happen. If someone is going to save Sansa, I want it to be Jon, someone who she can trust not to just want to use her as a pond in the game

I want it to be Sansa.