Why I don't hate Theon Greyjoy

[Lady Sharya]

We have little insight into how Asha actually waged her war as we only see her there a while after taking the place. Therefore, she could have easily given a sacrifice to the Drowned God when she initially took the Motte only we know no one there thus it resonates less in our mind (especially, in how she probably faced more fighting then Theon). Next, she doesn't treat her highborn prisoners any better then how Theon initially treated his highborn prisoners if I recall. However, though she has no problem endangering an infant by placing in a sea voyage without a source of milk to help ensure her control.

Finally, it is interesting how Asha despite thinking to herself about the flaws of Balon's moronic plan actually appears to have kept her mouth shut and gone along with it. That is despite your claims that she sticks to her values and the fact she had a much stronger position with their father in how he doesn't despise her.

Actually...Asha did treat her Highborn prisoners better than Theon did AND does concern herself with the baby's well-being WR to the sea voyage:

AFFC The Kraken's Daughter:

“That will not serve. We had a rough crossing. I want something hot in their bellies.” Asha hooked a thumb through the studded belt about her hips. “Lady Glover and the children should not want for wood nor warmth. Put them in some tower, not the dungeons. The babe is sick.”

“Babes are often sick. Most die, and folks are sorry. I shall ask my lord where to put these wolf folk.”

She caught the woman’s nose between thumb and forefinger and pinched. “You will do as I say. And if this babe dies, no one will be sorrier than you.” Three-Tooth squealed and promised to obey, till Asha let her loose and went to find her uncle.”

AND:

“The winds were against us, and I had captives to concern me. Robett Glover’s wife and children. The youngest is still at the breast, and Lady Glover’s milk dried up during our crossing. I had no choice but to beach Black Wind upon the Stony Shore and send my men out to find a wet nurse. They found a goat instead. The girl does not thrive. Is there a nursing mother in the village? Deepwood is important to my plans.”

And, we do get some insight into Asha's thinking on their war with the North & it's considerably more realistic and humane than ANY of Theon's thoughts on the subject:

To end this war before this war ends us. We have won all that we are like to win . . . and stand to lose all just as quick, unless we make a peace. I have shown Lady Glover every courtesy, and she swears her lord will treat with me. If we hand back Deepwood Motte, Torrhen’s Square, and Moat Cailin, she says, the northmen will cede us Sea Dragon Point and all the Stony Shore. Those lands are thinly peopled, yet ten times larger than all the isles put together. An exchange of hostages will seal the pact, and each side will agree to make common cause with the other should the Iron Throne—”

Victarion chuckled. “This Lady Glover plays you for a fool, niece. Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore are ours. Why hand back anything? Winterfell is burnt and broken, and the Young Wolf rots headless in the earth. We will have all the north, as your lord father dreamed.”

“When longships learn to row through trees, perhaps. A fisherman may hook a grey leviathan, but it will drag him down to death unless he cuts it loose. The north is too large for us to hold, and too full of northmen.”

[Minsc]

Actually...Asha did treat her Highborn prisoners better than Theon did AND does concern herself with the baby's well-being WR to the sea voyage:

And, we do get some insight into Asha's thinking on their war with the North & it's considerably more realistic and humane than ANY of Theon's thoughts on the subject:

Theon hardly threw Bran and Rickon (his highborn prisoners) into the dungeons when he took over Winterfell either. Thus, honestly they seem to be at a similar level in how they treated their captives only Asha's captives didn't "escape" causing her to take drastic actions. Additionally, Theon first attempted to peacefully rule Winterfell similar to Ned's example when he first took it with him actually punishing some of his troops for their abuses of the local population (whipping the rapists). Moreover, just taking a small child on a dangerous ship voyage places them at risk thus she endangered the child despite her best efforts just to ensure her own power.

At most that shows her as someone that believes that she can attack and steal someone's lands and then try to make a deal to keep it. However, it is interesting that the person offering to make her the deal has no absolute no authority to make such an offer and I doubt Roose or any other Northern leader would honor it. Simply, Asha is not all that better then Theon before it started to fall apart for him.

[Jslay427]

I am the president of the Theon fanboi club and I agree with everything in the OP. I do think that blood being thicker than water is a theme in ASOIAF but Theons case is of course much different than any we encounter.

[Lady Sharya]

Theon hardly threw Bran and Rickon (his highborn prisoners) into the dungeons when he took over Winterfell either. Thus, honestly they seem to be at a similar level in how they treated their captives only Asha's captives didn't "escape" causing her to take drastic actions. Additionally, Theon first attempted to peacefully rule Winterfell similar to Ned's example when he first took it with him actually punishing some of his troops for their abuses of the local population (whipping the rapists). Moreover, just taking a small child on a dangerous ship voyage places them at risk thus she endangered the child despite her best efforts just to ensure her own power.

No one said Theon threw Bran and Rickon into the dungeons...he just murdered, and helped skin & torch 2 Innocent boys when he couldn't find them to punish for having to audacity to successfully escape. Lady Glover, her children, household staff still live dispite remaining captive until the she-bear, mountain clans & Stannis show up so...

I think the text I quoted gives pretty good evidence for Asha's efforts in safeguarding the lives of her captives. There is nothing to argue here.

At most that shows her as someone that believes that she can attack and steal someone's lands and then try to make a deal to keep it. However, it is interesting that the person offering to make her the deal has no absolute no authority to make such an offer and I doubt Roose or any other Northern leader would honor it. Simply, Asha is not all that better then Theon before it started to fall apart for him.

How is this any different than the strategy used by all others engaged in war in Westross or Essos for that matter? How did Robert win the IT or Dany win Mereen if not by attacking, winning territory, and then brokering deals to make peace?

[Minsc]

No one said Theon threw Bran and Rickon into the dungeons...he just murdered, and helped skin & torch 2 Innocent boys when he couldn't find them to punish for having to audacity to successfully escape. Lady Glover, her children, household staff still live dispite remaining captive until the she-bear, mountain clans & Stannis show up so...

He only "murdered" them after they "escaped." As I doubt he would have actually cared out the same treatment to the Miller's boys to Bran and Rickon if he held them still in his captivity. As then he could have just continued to use them to control the Northerners and people of Winterfell because of how he holds their princes/lords captive.

Aka similar to how why Asha wouldn't want to murder Lady Glover and her children as they allow her to control the people of the Motte and neighboring regions as then she has hostages.

He murdered the Miller's boys because he cannot use them living replacements for Bran and Rickon as they would be noticeably different while if he executed and flayed their faces that would allow them to pass for Bran and Rickon. Which he hoped would allow him to better hold Winterfell then coming back empty handed.

In contrast, Lady Glover and her children never escaped from Asha thus she never had the need to replace them with alternatives as she still held the real deal.

How is this any different than the strategy used by all others engaged in war in Westross or Essos for that matter? How did Robert win the IT or Dany win Mereen if not by attacking, winning territory, and then brokering deals to make peace?

Nor is different then Theon's plan when he wanted to ally with Robb and take control of the Westerlands together, thus she is hardly doing that much better then him. Though, at least Theon's plan came with the assurance that the otherside (the North in both cases) would actually assist them. In how, again I doubt Roose and Ramsay would agree to allow Asha to hold those territories and not forcibly take them all back.

[Lady Sharya]

He only "murdered" them after they "escaped." As I doubt he would have actually cared out the same treatment to the Miller's boys to Bran and Rickon if he held them still in his captivity. As then he could have just continued to use them to control the Northerners and people of Winterfell because of how he holds their princes/lords captive.

Aka similar to how why Asha wouldn't want to murder Lady Glover and her children as they allow her to control the people of the Motte and neighboring regions as then she has hostages.

He murdered the Miller's boys because he cannot use them living replacements for Bran and Rickon as they would be noticeably different while if he executed and flayed their faces that would allow them to pass for Bran and Rickon. Which he hoped would allow him to better hold Winterfell then coming back empty handed.

In contrast, Lady Glover and her children never escaped from Asha thus she never had the need to replace them with alternatives as she still held the real deal.

And how does any of this prove what you said; that Asha doesn't treat her highborn prisoners any better than Theon does? And how does it prove Asha had no regard for baby Glover's life on the sea voyage?

All this does is reinforce that Asha is smarter & more humane that Theon in realizing that killing the Lord of the castle's children (real or percieved) you have just invaded ISN'T the way to go to ever end up controlling them or reaching any peace. Asha didn't just NOT kill, she PREVENTED the baby's death due to conditions she was responsible for putting them in while the baby was sick.

Show any evidence Theon was equally concerned for his captives.

Nor is different then Theon's plan when he wanted to ally with Robb and take control of the Westerlands together, thus she is hardly doing that much better then him. Though, at least Theon's plan came with the assurance that the otherside (the North in both cases) would actually assist them. In how, again I doubt Roose and Ramsay would agree to allow Asha to hold those territories and not forcibly take them all back.

You implied there was something negative about Asha taking DM & having the plan to make a deal to return the 3 castles (DMV, TS & WF) in exchange for Stony Shore & Sea Dragon point. Again, how is this a bad idea or any different than all other war strategies to gain power/land and reach peace?

There is no evidence for the perception that Asha and Theon are equal in either intelligence or morals.

[Minsc]

Asha had no reason to kill or pretend to kill Lady Glover or her children because she still held them. In contrast, Theon didn't actually hold Bran and Rickon thus he had to pretend to kill them. When he still actually had them he didn't kill them the same as how Asha didn't kill her captives thatt she actually held.

Thus, there being a difference in how they treated their captives only when he lost his.

The issue is that Asha's plan is no smarter then Theon's. In fact, her requires the North(who they just sneaked attacked) to agree to exchange promised by Lady Glover, of a masterly house, when it is now controled by Roose Bolton. While, Theon's plan came with the guartee support of King Robb Stark.

[Kate Poem]

"Everything" is a big word.

He could lost any chance for inheriting of Seastone Chair or any place on Iron Islands.

He could lost any chance for return to Robb. Catelyn did'nt trust him. Northerners did'nt trust him. After beginning of Balon's rebellion, someone could think... if not Robb, some northern lord for sure... Theon joined Balon.

He had'nt his own lands, money, he has his bow and sword, he had'nt his place in life and in Westeros.

Everything, I think is a perfect word for it.

And I really cannot see how his "head" will be in danger or in any bigger danger it was when he decided to do what he actually did.

His head could be in danger after beginning of Balon's plot, if he was with Robb. He was hostage.

[Lady Sharya]

Asha had no reason to kill or pretend to kill Lady Glover or her children because she still held them. In contrast, Theon didn't actually hold Bran and Rickon thus he had to pretend to kill them. When he still actually had them he didn't kill them the same as how Asha didn't kill her captives thatt she actually held.

Thus, there being a difference in how they treated their captives only when he lost his.

The issue is that Asha's plan is no smarter then Theon's. In fact, her requires the North(who they just sneaked attacked) to agree to exchange promised by Lady Glover, of a masterly house, when it is now controled by Roose Bolton. While, Theon's plan came with the guartee support of King Robb Stark.

I didn't get the sense from any of her POVs that Asha would have killed or pretended to kill any children. Since there isn't anything in the text to support that she would, it's a difference in personal opinion. Agree to disagree on it?

To be sure, I don't think any IB idea or plan was smart. In comparing Asha & Theon's strategies, I think it's kind of a matter of the degree of stupidity each possesses rather than who's plan may have actually worked. Neither had a winning strategy.

[TerraPrime]

[mod hat]

Please focus on the topic, and not the other users. In specific, disagree with an argument, but don't comment on the personality traits or posting habits of others.

Cheers.

[/mod hat]

[ghosts in winterfell]

Not really. I think what you describe is a psychopath and not every evil person is such.Evil person can have moments of guilt or remorse, but in the end he chooses his own ego and self interest. His selfishness overcomes any guilt or remorse and he still acts in evil way. At least that is "my" definition of evil person.

Also IIRC in the books, Theon was not really "plagued" by guilt until his situation turned bad once Bran and Rickon escaped. He made no attempt to distance himself from Balon campaign and really the only thing that interested him was his glory - hence his idiotic plan to capture WF.

"Your definition". Lol you're determined. What interested him the most was other people's perceptions about his capability as a leader. He put way too much stock in other people's opinions and it made him highly susceptible to manipulation. It makes him stupid and weak-willed at worst, not evil. The miller's boys coverup wouldn't have happened if Ramsay, being the predator that he is, hadn't been able to sniff out this weakness and play on his desperation.

I don't think it really matters that he wasn't having fully fledged nightmares until the situation spun out of control. Fact of the matter is that he isn't a cruel person by nature and the Better to Be Cruel Than Weak approach never sat well with him, no matter how hard he tried to convince everyone, including himself, otherwise. When he was off reaving with the Ironborn he spends Theon III, ACOK wondering why nothing tastes good even though everything was going according to plan.

As for distancing himself, Theon was ready to throw in the towel and take the Black, but was cut short because Ramsay & his men from the Dreadfort took the opportunity to lay waste to Winterfell.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

What a joke