ghosts in winterfell Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Shocker I'm sorry, do you have some point to make? What's not to enjoy in reading about the inner turmoil of an incredibly complex character, especially one that is coming to terms with all of the things he's done wrong? Do you harbor such self-righteous indignation for every single character that's less than saintly? Do you hold every character to the same high, rigid standards that you apply to Theon, or does their moral ambiguity get a pass because you like them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 You're at it again. "Made to comply" implies that she didn't want to be there, but had no choice. Provide a quote please.Yes I'm at it again with the same explanation I've given 10+ times now. At some point, you should accept the definition I keep giving for MY OWN WORDS instead of assuming you know better what I actually meant dispite my clarifying over and over.Made to comply= She was made to comply due to the fact that Theon was in charge and ordered her presence when he wanted to have sex with. She had as much choice to say no as Bran had to concede Rule of WF to Theon...which was none. Therefore, she cannot be said to be complicit and acting of her own free will.Made to comply does NOT= an unquestionable case for rape.If this doesn't clarify things for you, nothing will, so let's be done putting words in my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayjew Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 I'm sorry, do you have some point to make? What's not to enjoy in reading about the inner turmoil of an incredibly complex character, especially one that is coming to terms with all of the things he's done wrong? Do you harbor such self-righteous indignation for every single character that's less than saintly? Do you hold every character to the same high, rigid standards that you apply to Theon, or does their moral ambiguity get a pass because you like them? Exactly :) , don't bother with people like this ghosts, who only aim to offend or hold their own opinion on some moral high ground pretence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Snip I don't see that quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I don't see that quote.What are you asking me to quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 What are you asking me to quote? Where it suggests that Theon forced her to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Where it suggests that Theon forced her to be there. Until Theon had sent for her, she had lived all of her eighteen years in the winter town without ever setting foot inside the walls of the castle. She came to him wet and eager and lithe as a weasel, and there had been a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark's own bed. He "sent for her", so he was the one requesting her presence but I'm not sure it means that he was holding her there against her will. eta If she had refused to warm his bed, he probably would have just moved on to someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Where it suggests that Theon forced her to be there. She's gonna stick to her stance that Kyra essentially didn't have the capacity to consent because Theon was in a position of power over her, which would mean that she couldn't have technically been complicit with Ned or any other incumbent Lord of Winterfell because they were all in a position of power over her. As a tavern wench, I would imagine she was thrilled to be warming Theon's bed, invader or not. That is not to say that she consented to being abused by Theon or expected that he would hurt her, though from what we know he was otherwise good to her. I think Sharya is partially right, but she's also wrong. Whether or not she was complicit is impossible to truly know, because Theon could have forced himself on her with or without her willing consent. However, it is safe to guess IMO that she had no problem sleeping with Theon. Far be it from me to question her honor on the matter, but she was just a tavern wench-- I doubt it mattered greatly to her who was acting lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Until Theon had sent for her, she had lived all of her eighteen years in the winter town without ever setting foot inside the walls of the castle. She came to him wet and eager and lithe as a weasel, and there had been a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark's own bed. He "sent for her", so he was the one requesting her presence but I'm not sure it means that he was holding her there against her will. eta If she had refused to warm his bed, he probably would have just moved on to someone else. I know he sent for her. That's my point. I'm wondering where it suggests that she didn't want to be there, but he forced her to stay. Because everything suggests she happy until the Miller boys night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Where it suggests that Theon forced her to be there.That's like asking me quote were ANY other WF resident is forced to comply with Theon's demands while he and his IB are in charge. It is implicit In the very nature of the situation. If you don't understand that, I recommend rereading those chapters.And btw- if you believe that person being held captive by a man who has already slaughtered many non-combatants actually has the choice of free will, then you would have to agree that Theon himself has been complicit in his own torture at the hands of Ramsey since he didn't made an attempt to escape. I'm not willing to put that much responsibility on victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Until Theon had sent for her, she had lived all of her eighteen years in the winter town without ever setting foot inside the walls of the castle. She came to him wet and eager and lithe as a weasel, and there had been a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark's own bed. He "sent for her", so he was the one requesting her presence but I'm not sure it means that he was holding her there against her will. eta If she had refused to warm his bed, he probably would have just moved on to someone else.You keep saying that regardless of the fact that he DID rape her...and he did kill innocent people out in the open for all to see. How do you get that he would probably have moved on to someone else? How do you not get that the only real choice she had was how bad the situation could get for her by NOT complying? The fact that he brutalized her dispite her prior cooperation makes the rape even worse from the perspective of...What is he gonna do next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 That's like asking me quote were ANY other WF resident is forced to comply with Theon's demands while he and his IB are in charge. It is implicit In the very nature of the situation. If you don't understand that, I recommend rereading those chapters.And btw- if you believe that person being held captive by a man who has already slaughtered many non-combatants actually has the choice of free will, then you would have to agree that Theon himself has been complicit in his own torture at the hands of Ramsey since he didn't made an attempt to escape. I'm not willing to put that much responsibility on victims.I recommend that you reread the chapters Sharya. In the chapter where Bran hands control of WF to Theon he makes it clear that they have no choice in the matter, but Kyra's not from WF. She's one of the Smallfolk and lives outside their walls. She had a previous relationship with him and doesn't show any signs that she's uncomfortable or unhappy until the Miller boys night. Provide a quote or concede. Because we have no reason to believe that she was unhappy with her situation until the Miller Boys night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 She's gonna stick to her stance that Kyra essentially didn't have the capacity to consent because Theon was in a position of power over her, which would mean that she couldn't have technically been complicit with Ned or any other incumbent Lord of Winterfell because they were all in a position of power over her. As a tavern wench, I would imagine she was thrilled to be warming Theon's bed, invader or not. That is not to say that she consented to being abused by Theon or expected that he would hurt her, though from what we know he was otherwise good to her. I think Sharya is partially right, but she's also wrong. Whether or not she was complicit is impossible to truly know, because Theon could have forced himself on her with or without her willing consent. However, it is safe to guess IMO that she had no problem sleeping with Theon. Far be it from me to question her honor on the matter, but she was just a tavern wench-- I doubt it mattered greatly to her who was acting lord.I don't really know which is worse; someone who doesn't understand the obvious lack of agency Kyra had dispite providing page after page of understand for Theon's circumstances, OR someone who understands perfectly well what I am saying but chooses to dismiss the lack of agency Kyra had because "SHE WAS JUST A TAVERN WENCH"!Tell me, Would she have merited your sence of justice or compassion if she had been Highborn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Fox Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Kyra was a girl that enjoyed fucking Theon. One day Theon, in his stupidity, raped Kyra. -- Nothing more to it. How is this even an argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 You keep saying that regardless of the fact that he DID rape her...and he did kill innocent people out in the open for all to see. How do you get that he would probably have moved on to someone else?How do you not get that the only real choice she had was how bad the situation could get for her by NOT complying? The fact that he brutalized her dispite her prior cooperation makes the rape even worse from the perspective of...What is he gonna do next? I posted it again because Lee-Sensei asked for the quote suggesting that Theon was forcing her to warm his bed, but since that doesn't actually exist this is the closest thing. If she had shown disinterest, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal and he may have looked to someone else. It was before the incident with the miller's boys and like Lee-Sensei said, there is nothing to suggest that she was unhappy/feeling forced to comply before that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 You keep saying that regardless of the fact that he DID rape her...and he did kill innocent people out in the open for all to see. How do you get that he would probably have moved on to someone else? Before the violent encounter (which was immediately after "Bran" and "Rickon's" executions) he had hardly killed multiple innocent individuals if IIRC. As how he only had the Septon sacrificed while Mikken actively rebelled against their takeover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil' Bird Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Kyra was a girl that enjoyed fucking Theon. One day Theon, in his stupidity, raped Kyra. -- Nothing more to it. How is this even an argument?Even the night he "raped" her, I think she went willing until she saw his fury. I get that it may have seamed like Theon sending for her seems like she doesn't have a choice though. Just based on their past relationship I'd say that she was not reluctant to go to Winterfell, and be one of Theon's "salt wives". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Fox Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Even the night he "raped" her, I think she went willing until she saw his fury.I get that it may have seamed like Theon sending for her seems like she doesn't have a choice though. Just based on their past relationship I'd say that she was not reluctant to go to Winterfell, and be one of Theon's "salt wives". Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I recommend that you reread the chapters Sharya. In the chapter where Bran hands control of WF to Theon he makes it clear that they have no choice in the matter, but Kyra's not from WF. She's one of the Smallfolk and lives outside their walls. She had a previous relationship with him and doesn't show any signs that she's uncomfortable or unhappy until the Miller boys night. Provide a quote or concede. Because we have no reason to believe that she was unhappy with her situation until the Miller Boys night.There is nothing I see to concede to. I stand firm that nothing in Theon's chapters prove Kyra was 100% happy being his bed mate. There is NO WAY she would have able to say no & have Theon simply leave her alone & find someone else. I also stand firm that that Theon's own POV clearly shows that he did rape her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil' Bird Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Exactly.I imagine her reaction to be like that of Ros when she found out what Joff wanted her to do/ do to her with the other whore, excited to "please" an important man, but once she realized what they wanted, too afraid to say no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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