Nictarion Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 And I'm sure Jeyne Poole would rather be alive with Ramsey until rescued than have her throat slit by Theon on her first night back in WF!!! I am positively certain I would!!Wait, what? Why would Theon kill Jeyne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Bad guy maybe, but definitely not evil. Not even close. He wouldn't have bothered saving Jeyne if he was.I agree he isn't evil, but he was getting way to much sympathy and overlooked crimes & faults in this thread for my taste... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Wait, what? Why would Theon kill Jeyne? He actually wanted to help Jeyne. Since you claim you've read the books 4 times, surely you haven't forgotten that Theon had actually considered cutting her throat on her wedding night to spare Jeyne whatever cruelty Ramsay would inflict on her?Like I said, I'm glad this is the Internet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Does being slightly less evil than the most evil characters in the story somehow make it impossible for Theon to be evil as well? It's like saying that David Westerfield is less evil than Ted Bundy. He isn't just "slightly less evil", Theon couldn't hold a torch to Ramsay even at his absolute worst, so stop making such ridiculous comparisons. it's a tactic not working for me either. Are we supposed to overlook the overwhelming text support for Theon being a bad guy cuz Ramsey is worse? It's not working for you because you refuse to acknowledge that Theon is an incredibly complex character and not someone that can just be filed away under Unquestionably Evil Black and White Villain. Since you've claimed to have read through the series several times it's astounding that you continually fail to pick up on this, and I'm not sure it's GRRM's fault. No, you said he was responsible for most of them. Now, show where I claimed Theon was responsible for anything Ramsey did OR where I even mentioned Ramsey's deeds. "the atrocities he committed a Winterfell (that are too numerous & sickening to recount" Sure, you didn't name Ramsay here, but you also didn't bother to go into what these numerous and sickening atrocities are, so one can only guess that you had forgotten. You might actually want to actually, you know, clarify. And Theon is getting the sympathy that GRRM intended him to. No one is overlooking the things he's done, but understanding that there are understandable albeit seriously misguided reasons for them. No one is overlooking his faults, either, they were a huge contributing factor for everything that went wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Wait, what? Why would Theon kill Jeyne? He contemplated doing it before the wedding to spare Jeyne from suffering at Ramsay's hands as he had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Theon is very complex.He wants to do the right thing but he also wants to be recognized by his father which makes it impossible to have both.Theon isn't evil but he isn't good either.The problem with him is he hides who he is always behind all of his jerkish behaviour he is still a scared little boy who wants his family.Theons crimes are too much and he can't be redeemed.Don't get me wrong right now I feel sorry for him but th best way out for him is death even he wants that.He can do good things but he can't be redeemed.There is no redemption for killing because there is noone to forgive him noone ca forgive him for that crime because they are not the victim of that crime.This was very well put & summarizes Theon's entire character arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Theons crimes are too much and he can't be redeemed.Don't get me wrong right now I feel sorry for him but th best way out for him is death even he wants that.He can do good things but he can't be redeemed.There is no redemption for killing because there is noone to forgive him noone ca forgive him for that crime because they are not the victim of that crime.Theon's redemption arc is already well underway, GRRM wouldn't have kept him around this long if he had planned otherwise. He is genuinely remorseful for the wrongs that he's done (we even saw a bit of this at the closing of ACOK), and he was the only one that wanted to rescue Jeyne Poole instead of her guise "Arya Stark". His arc is far from over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 It's not working for you because you refuse to acknowledge that Theon is an incredibly complex character and not someone that can just be filed away under Unquestionably Evil Black and White Villain. Since you've claimed to have read through the series several times it's astounding that you continually fail to pick up on this, and I'm not sure it's GRRM's fault.Here we go again. Just stop claiming I have said things I simply haven't said or implied. And stop saying that People have a failure in reading comprehention if they don't agree with you. It's not nice, nor does it contribute to your argument.the atrocities he committed a Winterfell (that are too numerous & sickening to recount" Sure, you didn't name Ramsay here, but you also didn't bother to go into what these numerous and sickening atrocities are, so one can only guess that you had forgotten. You might actually want to actually, you know, clarify.The murders of the household men Theon spent 8+ years living with were atrocities. How he treated Kyra was sick...ectI'm not responsible for you assuming I blame all the deeds Ramsey committed on Theon just because I didn't spell out all the deeds Theon committed. Unlike you, I assume others here have read the books & have a fair memory for the things Theon did do. I was pointing out why I didn't like Theon before he took WF so what he did afterwards wasn't entirely relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Theon's redemption arc is already well underway, GRRM wouldn't have kept him around this long if he had planned otherwise. He is genuinely remorseful for the wrongs that he's done (we even saw a bit of this at the closing of ACOK), and he was the only one that wanted to rescue Jeyne Poole instead of her guise "Arya Stark". His arc is far from over. Redemption a very different thing for me.You can be forgiven for theft, for wounding someone etc.Theon does good things that is okey that shows progress and that shows character development.He cann't redeeem himself with a life of servitude but he can do good things by serving he can be a good guy by serving but that won't change the fact that he killed innocent people.He can be a good guy by serving but as long as he lives noone will forget Theon Truncloak, Theon Kinslayer and neither will he forget those things.So where is the redemption in that?He can be one of the good guys by doing good things in the end but that won't change his view of himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Theon ain't a Turncloak (he owed the North nothing, and his current thoughts are those of a broken and mentally unstable man), and he certainly ain't a Kinslayer, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Theon ain't a Turncloak (he owed the North nothing, and his current thoughts are those of a broken and mentally unstable man), and he certainly ain't a Kinslayer,Since sentiment like being good friends with Robb means nothing to you, let's go with the hard cold facts: Theon swore felty to Robb, went on an errand for Robb, then invaded Torrhen Square and then took over Winterfell.Turncloak= turning ones alliance against allies. Hence, TURN CLOAKYou can sympathize or even defend, but facts are facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 He didn't swear fealty to Robb (in the books anyway), and his duty is to his family. He's a turncloak and betrayer of kin if he doesn't side with the Greyjoys. He did, however, carry out Robb's instructions of carrying the message to his father, then actually tried to defend Robb to Balon. But it was a fight he was never going to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I agree he isn't evil, but he was getting way to much sympathy and overlooked crimes & faults in this thread for my taste... I dunno; a guy who would slaughter two little boys just to avoid embarrassment (wanting to prove that he punished Bran and Rickon for escaping because it made him look bad) qualifies as "evil" in my book. I am sorry for Theon for the torture he received; he is not on the level of Ramsey, but he still deserves execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 He didn't swear fealty to Robb (in the books anyway), and his duty is to his family. He's a turncloak and betrayer of kin if he doesn't side with the Greyjoys. He did, however, carry out Robb's instructions of carrying the message to his father, then actually tried to defend Robb to Balon. But it was a fight he was never going to win. Theon is both Truncloak and Kinslayer.He betrayed those ironborn and gave them to Ramsay.Starks weren't Theons family but he was under Robbs army which means he swore fealty in someplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I dunno; a guy who would slaughter two little boys just to avoid embarrassment (wanting to prove that he punished Bran and Rickon for escaping because it made him look bad) qualifies as "evil" in my book. I am sorry for Theon for the torture he received; he is not on the level of Ramsey, but he still deserves execution. We must put a definition for "evil" in forum rules. :cool4: I would say very bad but not evil because when you see people like Tywin, Walder, Ramsay, Varamyr, Vargo Hoat, Khal Drogo etc... Then how can we say Theon is evil?I think he is/was very bad but I won't say evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Theon did not kill those children accidentally, or command a military force that was destroying enemy strongholds in a bitter war and thus caused civilian casualties. He decided to sacrifice two kids to salvage his pride, not to mention allow the murder of their mother as well. That action proves Theon is evil, in my book. It doesn't lessen the more monstrous acts and evil natures of Ramsay, Tywin, Walder, etc. We can agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Theon is both Truncloak and Kinslayer.He betrayed those ironborn and gave them to Ramsay.Starks weren't Theons family but he was under Robbs army which means he swore fealty in someplace. Let's pretend for a moment that Theon at the time he handed the Ironborn over to Ramsay wasn't a mentally destroyed wreck (he was, and as such can't be morally held liable, but let's ignore that for the moment). None of those Ironborn were his family, and nor did he play any part in their deaths other than organising their surrender. He's not a Kinslayer. Theon's obligation to Robb is as a hostage. Which is to say, no obligation at all. Theon's duty is to his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I dunno; a guy who would slaughter two little boys just to avoid embarrassment (wanting to prove that he punished Bran and Rickon for escaping because it made him look bad) qualifies as "evil" in my book. I am sorry for Theon for the torture he received; he is not on the level of Ramsey, but he still deserves execution. Robb started a war to avoid familial embarrassment. Does that make him evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Robb started a war to avoid familial embarrassment. Does that make him evil? Wasn't Robb well aware of Theon's plan to have the Ironborn attack Lannisport? Think of all the people who would be killed and women raped. Robb is hardly a good person. Of course, Theon is a scumshit. But let's not act like Robb is this morally white dude. A Westerosi king has to make awful decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 kin:a person's relatives collectively; kindred, a class or group with similar characteristics.Theon turned his people to Ramsay so Kinslayer and he turned to Balon against Robb thus he is turncloak.I don't remember Robb saying kill all those women and rape them etc....Robb wanted to destroy Lannisters power over Lannisport he never showed any bad intentions against smallfolk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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