Why I don't hate Theon Greyjoy

[ghosts in winterfell]

So basically you are saying if Hitler were tortured by Mengele who was a sicker fuck than him, that somehow that makes the retribution somehow less deserving? No it just means that Mengele himself needs to be tortured and die a horrible death

LOL are you seriously bringing Godwin's Law into this? Where did I say anything about Hitler? It's not even remotely comparable, get a grip.

This thread has turned full-on Godwin it seems.

I guess when all else fails....

[johnnysd]

LOL are you seriously bringing Godwin's Law into this? Where did I say anything about Hitler? It's not even remotely comparable, get a grip.

It is an on point comparison for what you and many say as partial defense of Theon

[ghosts in winterfell]

It is an on point comparison for what you and many say as partial defense of Theon

Except that its in no way fucking relevant.

[Minsc]

This argument also failed horribly at the Nuremberg trials. There ARE absolute evils in the world and not everyone would choose that path just because of the situation or the culture they were in. There WERE German youths that refused to be part of what was going on. Just because you believe that everyone is a weak fuck that would cave to the type of pressure exerted on Theon does not make it true. Nor does it justify, explain or forgive his actions in the series, regardless of his personality weakness upbringing or whether or not other characters are more evil than he is.

The forces of the Ironborn were likely not performing any more major monstrosities then the Starks, Lannisters, or the potential Baratheon troops thus him siding with his family and culture isn't comparable to the Nazis.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

This argument also failed horribly at the Nuremberg trials. There ARE absolute evils in the world and not everyone would choose that path just because of the situation or the culture they were in. There WERE German youths that refused to be part of what was going on. Just because you believe that everyone is a weak fuck that would cave to the type of pressure exerted on Theon does not make it true. Nor does it justify, explain or forgive his actions in the series, regardless of his personality weakness upbringing or whether or not other characters are more evil than he is.

:bs:

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

The forces of the Ironborn were likely not performing any more major monstrosities then the Starks, Lannisters, or the potential Baratheon troops thus him siding with his family and culture isn't comparable to the Nazis.

This

[Livus]

So, ignoring the godwin for a moment, what you posters are arguing about is the extent to which someone's upbringing and culture can excuse their actions?

Or is it also the extent to which their personality can excuse their actions given the extent to which nurture (upbringing and culture) shapes personality?

[Lee-Sensei]

So basically you are saying if Hitler were tortured by Mengele who was a sicker fuck than him, that somehow that makes the retribution somehow less deserving? No it just means that Mengele himself needs to be tortured and die a horrible death

Terrible argument. Hitler. Killed. Millions. Theon is guilty of going through with Reeks plan to kill the miller boys, a couple Iron Born soldiers and killing Farlan. Bad? Sure, but you're really reaching when you compare him to Hitler.

[Sullen]

So, ignoring the godwin for a moment, what you posters are arguing about is the extent to which someone's upbringing and culture can excuse their actions?

Or is it also the extent to which their personality can excuse their actions given the extent to which nurture (upbringing and culture) shapes personality?

Oh, they are awful actions, and should not be forgiven... They are no worse than what other, more celebrated, characters do, though.

Robb, Stannis, Dany, Robert, Renly, and many others are guilty of worse crimes in the grand scale of things.

[Livus]

I'm also curious about how many posters in this forum are okay with torture under certain circumstances... and of those, how many are from the USA and the UK.

[ghosts in winterfell]

So, ignoring the godwin for a moment, what you posters are arguing about is the extent to which someone's upbringing and culture can excuse their actions?

Or is it also the extent to which their personality can excuse their actions given the extent to which nurture (upbringing and culture) shapes personality?

I don't think anyone is excusing his actions so much as acknowledging that his motivations for them are relatively understandable. They're not particularly good reasons, sure, but understandable nonetheless. I agree with what TheButcherCrow said here -- would any of us have really done differently, if we were in his shoes?

Theon is the ultimate "there but for the grace of god" story. In that situation, with that upbringing, with that father & that culture, any one of us could have ended up just like Theon & if you don't agree... join group two.

[Lil' Bird]

I must be the only one that does not feel bad for Theon at all. He betrayed Robb, didn't follow his fathers plans, and is most likely the dumbest character and I'm to feel bad that've Ramsay and Roose played him like a fiddle?

No.

I do hope he is "redeemed" though.

I liked him in the first book and the first season.

[Livus]

I don't think anyone is excusing his actions so much as acknowledging that his motivations for them are relatively understandable. They're not particularly good reasons, sure, but understandable nonetheless. I agree with what TheButcherCrow said here -- would any of us have really done differently, if we were in his shoes?

Good point. Explain, not excuse.

I think I differ with some of you on the extent to which these things explain, though. Otherwise, why is there so much variation in human behaviour? Why do some siblings make better choices than others? Not that I'm saying it's all due to personal choice or control. To cite a basic example, have you noticed that if you happen upon a car accident or similar situation, some people respond well in an emergency while others freeze up or behave irrationally? This difference is largely governed by physical chemical components in the brain.

[Lee-Sensei]

I must be the only one that does not feel bad for Theon at all. He betrayed Robb, didn't follow his fathers plans, and is most likely the dumbest character and I'm to feel bad that've Ramsay and Roose played him like a fiddle?

No.

I do hope he is "redeemed" though.

I liked him in the first book and the first season.

You're not the only one.

1) Betraying Robb. Theon was always a Greyjoy. His loyalty was always to House Greyjoy first. Do you think that if put in a situation where Robb had to choose his family, the Northeners and his inheritance or Theon he'd choose Theon?

2) Disobeying his father's orders isn't all that big a deal. Taking Winterfell was a masterstroke and had he not been so attached to it, he could have one a major victory for the Iron Born in a Rebellion that was destined to fail.

3) Theon's not Varys or Litttlefinger of course, but he's far from the dumbest character in the books.

[Lil' Bird]

You're not the only one.

1) Betraying Robb. Theon was always a Greyjoy. His loyalty was always to House Greyjoy first. Do you think that if put in a situation where Robb had to choose his family, the Northeners and his inheritance or Theon he'd choose Theon?

2) Disobeying his father's orders isn't all that big a deal. Taking Winterfell was a masterstroke and had he not been so attached to it, he could have one a major victory for the Iron Born in a Rebellion that was destined to fail.

3) Theon's not Varys or Litttlefinger of course, but he's far from the dumbest character in the books.

I honestly think that Robb considered Theon a brother, he never considered Theon betraying him and would have always treated him as a brother.

[Lee-Sensei]

I honestly think that Robb considered Theon a brother, he never considered Theon betraying him and would have always treated him as a brother.

I agree. And Theon considered Robb a brother, but the facts remain. If Robb was put in Theon's position... where he had to choose between Theon and his family, people and inheritance he wouldn't choose Theon.

[Broken Fox]

I agree. And Theon considered Robb a brother, but the facts remain. If Robb was put in Theon's position... where he had to choose between Theon and his family, people and inheritance he wouldn't choose Theon.

True but The Starks aren't retarded assholes, and I don't think Robb would just attack Theon's home in some misguided attempt at gaining respect from his own father. Obviously Robb would be a different person if he was raised as a ward, but I think it was Theon's inherent weakness that caused him to do that. Robb's a much stronger person.

[Sullen]

True but The Starks aren't retarded assholes, and I don't think Robb would just attack Theon's home in some misguided attempt at gaining respect from his own father. Obviously Robb would be a different person if he was raised as a ward, but I think it was Theon's inherent weakness that caused him to do that. Robb's a much stronger person.

Dagmer wasn't a "retarded asshole", neither was Theon's mother, nor Uncle Aeron at the time. In contrast, the Starks were cold and distant, and with the exception of Robb, never showed him any true appreciation... I don't get where the conception that the Starks treated Theon lovingly comes from. They treated him decently, as was expected of them, no more, no less.

In the situation where Robb has to take the Iron Islands, he would attack Pyke if he thought he could take it.

[Minsc]

Obviously Robb would be a different person if he was raised as a ward, but I think it was Theon's inherent weakness that caused him to do that. Robb's a much stronger person.

To be fair, Robb was always the oldest and heir of House Stark with two loving parents and loving siblings. In contrast, Theon was initially raised as the youngest of House Greyjoy before his brothers' deaths. Furthermore, while the youngest he was reportedly bullied and otherwise abused by his older brothers and I somehow doubt that Balon was a caring parent to him.

And that was all before he was stripped away from his home and family to act as a hostage in a foreign land.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I must be the only one that does not feel bad for Theon at all. He betrayed Robb, didn't follow his fathers plans, and is most likely the dumbest character and I'm to feel bad that've Ramsay and Roose played him like a fiddle?

No.

I do hope he is "redeemed" though.

I liked him in the first book and the first season.

We are meant to sympathize with him and his suffering. We have access to all of his thoughts and the motivations behind his actions, and while his reasons aren't very good ones, they're still understandable. He isn't an inherently bad or cruel person, but his insecurity is his biggest flaw -- things could have gone very differently if his thirst for the approval of others hadn't gotten in the way.

I honestly think that Robb considered Theon a brother, he never considered Theon betraying him and would have always treated him as a brother.

I agree. And Theon considered Robb a brother, but the facts remain. If Robb was put in Theon's position... where he had to choose between Theon and his family, people and inheritance he wouldn't choose Theon.

It's true that Balon may not have loved Theon half as much as Robb did, but even then Robb was quick to remind him that he didn't truly belong with the Starks.

I like to think that one of the reasons Cat advised Robb not to send Theon to the Iron Islands was that she understood the obligations of remaining loyal to one's family ( the Tully word are "Family, Duty, Honor." after all). She knew he wouldn't be able to resist because she would have done the exactly the same.

True but The Starks aren't retarded assholes, and I don't think Robb would just attack Theon's home in some misguided attempt at gaining respect from his own father. Obviously Robb would be a different person if he was raised as a ward, but I think it was Theon's inherent weakness that caused him to do that. Robb's a much stronger person.

Not strong enough to avoid ruining his key alliance by breaking his betrothal, apparently.