Why I don't hate Theon Greyjoy

[Cas Stark]

True, it's a tragic event. But imagine Sansa's POV after another decade with Littlefinger.

Petyr, who had been more a father to Sansa than her own....

Free will is a very important thing. Theon was a captive and could not even visit his home. The fact that his own father is a bastard and he became close with his captors family doesn't change it.

He was treated well and honorably at Winterfell. Raised with Ned Stark's own sons. It's only too bad he recognizes the truth too late. High born hostages are part of Westeros society, it's a standard practice to ensure loyalty.

You cannot seriously compare LF, having betrayed Sansa's father to his death, having done nothing but lie to her and manipulate her from day one, framing her for Joff's murder, destroying her chance for the Tyrell marriage, all the while using her as a sick stand in for her mother as being similar on the grounds that neither she nor Theon are there of their own free will.

[Raksha 2014]

Betraying the Starks is probably Theon's most forgivable offense. As readers, we are conditioned to see the Starks as noble, but Theon was a hostage taken from an enemy house.

It would be similar to Sansa eventually betraying Littlefinger.

We just like the Starks and think their cause is just and noble, and we hate Littlefinger.

Except that none of the Starks ever sexually molested Theon after persuading him to call them "Father", as Littlefinger has done to Sansa.

Did Theon swear fealty to Robb? If so, then I don't find his seizure of Winterfell forgivable.

Sorry, but since Theon was a grown man, I cannot and never will find his deliberate murder of the miller's young sons and their mother forgivable in any respect. This wasn't an atrocity perpetrated by soldiers/mercenaries under his banner; Theon personally decided to kill the children to avoid the embarrassment of the little Stark boys having escaped him. I don't care if Reek/Ramsey gave him the idea; Theon could have said 'no'. Even Asha was appalled; killing little boys (one of them crippled) does not seem to be a desirable achievement in the Ironborn playbook.

Theon does not deserve torture for his crimes, just a quick death.

[ghosts in winterfell]

True, it's a tragic event. But imagine Sansa's POV after another decade with Littlefinger.

Petyr, who had been more a father to Sansa than her own....

Free will is a very important thing. Theon was a captive and could not even visit his home. The fact that his own father is a bastard and he became close with his captors doesn't change it.

He's not too bright and his plan to hold Winterfell was unthought out, but he can't be blamed too harshly for choosing his family's side over his captor's family's side in the war.

:agree:

The Starks were kind to him, but it was hardly some freak thing that couldn't have happened anywhere else. They treated him according to protocol as was befitting of his station. Robb was the only one who seems to have treated him as family, but even then that may have only been when it suited him. There was nothing brotherly about the way he reacted to Theon saving Bran in the Wolfswood:

"Woah, that was a close call! Imagine what could have happened if I hadn't acted quick enough --"

"WHAT THE HELL IS THE MATTER WITH YOU? I AM THE HERO OF THIS STORY!"

"YEAH, YOU'RE WELCOME BUDDY!"

Ugh, that bit about Sansa and Littlefucker is heartbreaking :frown5:

[Brewmaster]

He was treated well and honorably at Winterfell. Raised with Ned Stark's own sons. It's only too bad he recognizes the truth too late. High born hostages are part of Westeros society, it's a standard practice to ensure loyalty.

You cannot seriously compare LF, having betrayed Sansa's father to his death, having done nothing but lie to her and manipulate her from day one, framing her for Joff's murder, destroying her chance for the Tyrell marriage, all the while using her as a sick stand in for her mother as being similar on the grounds that neither she nor Theon are there of their own free will.

Sansa doesn't know that Littlefinger has betrayed her father and she doesn't know that he's lied to her.

And yes, Ned treated Theon honorably... after he killed his brothers in the war and took him away from his family as a child.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Robb's demise was his own doing. Theon didn't force him to sleep with Jeyne and break off his betrothal.

You know, the funny thing is, if Robb had never sent Theon away and kept him at his side, it's quite possible Theon could've talked Robb out of that ultimately fatal blunder. Throughout Game of Thrones we see Theon have an influence on Robb's decision making -- Calling The Banners is Theon's idea, a gut reaction to Ned being assaulted by Jaime. Its the scene Catelyn notes Theon is, for once, Not Smiling.

Marrying Westerling, that is. Not having sex with her. Theon would never attempt to talk Robb out of sleeping with any given girl unless he perhaps wanted a given girl for himself. :)

[Broken Fox]

I pity Theon more than I hate him. One thing I despise about him is how weak willed he is. All of the destruction he's caused stems from his own bullshit weakness and insecurities. And he's a total douche long before any of the craziness even starts. So.. there you go. That said, I never got any satisfaction at the punishment Ramsay dishes out on him. One, it's not a justice thing. Ramsay's just a sick fuck and Theon happened to fall into the crosshairs. But at the same time his situation is a result of his own stupidity. He's reaping what he sowed. As far as what he deserves... he deserves to be killed by a Stark.

As for Jaime (as these two often come up together), he had a clear cut reason for pushing Bran. It wasn't wanton or careless cruelty, or stupidity. Reprehensible but understandable. A lot would have been at stake had he let Bran walk away. I don't put the two characters in the same field at all.

[Winnief]

I pity Theon more than I hate him. One thing I despise about him is how weak willed he is. All of the destruction he's caused stems from his own bullshit weakness and insecurities. And he's a total douche long before any of the craziness even starts. So.. there you go. That said, I never got any satisfaction at the punishment Ramsay dishes out on him. One, it's not a justice thing. Ramsay's just a sick fuck and Theon happened to fall into the crosshairs. But at the same time his situation is a result of his own stupidity. He's reaping what he sowed. As far as what he deserves... he deserves to be killed by a Stark.

Agreed on all fronts...but I think it may still be possible for Theon to earn some redemption for his crimes and that this is the arc, GRRM has planned for him-sometime in the next two books, I see Theon sacrificing himself for the greater good. How and for what cause remain to be seen.

[Ser Lady Stark Martell]

I have mixed feelings about Theon. I don't think he deserved to be tortured like that. Sure, he betrayed Robb. Sure, he was an asshole. But I think that now, after everything he's been through, we'll see some change in him. I think it's sad, really, that he went against Robb and the Starks only because he wanted to prove himself to his father. He wasn't all that great before that, neither, but for me it was all a lie. Like a mask. It's not easy to be kept as a hostage for years, he surely must have missed his home, not to mention he was bound to feel left out. And to be treated the way he was when he finally came back home??? Yikes.

It doesn't justify what he did, sure, but it helps us understand it a little. He obviously wasn't right. But he didn't do it just for the heck of it. He's a very complex character. I don't want him to die. I want him to fully recognize he was an asshole and I want him to try and find a way to make things right. And if he can't, I want him to live with those mistakes, those "shadows", and I want him to use them as an inspiration to become a better person and honor Robb, Ned, Cat and all the Starks in every way he can.

[Lord Thornhart]

I feel that Theon will get one of those "Live and suffer" fates. Death would be a gift to him at this rate, as he noted several times in DwD and in the WoW preview. Usually the reader does not want a character they like to die. When it's the other way around, I think it's best they live. Not as punishment, but as redemption. Death would be an escape from his redemption.

[evita mgfs]

When Bran appears in the face of the heart tree in WF's godswood, Theon recognizes Bran and hears him. When the red leaf shaped like a hand brushes Theon's forehead, it is like a gesture of forgiveness on Bran's behalf. Through Bran, I am learning not to despise Theon with the ferocity I once had. Moreover, Bran gives Theon a remarkable moment when the leaves say "Theon". The old gods know HIS name.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I have mixed feelings about Theon. I don't think he deserved to be tortured like that. Sure, he betrayed Robb. Sure, he was an asshole. But I think that now, after everything he's been through, we'll see some change in him. I think it's sad, really, that he went against Robb and the Starks only because he wanted to prove himself to his father. He wasn't all that great before that, neither, but for me it was all a lie. Like a mask. It's not easy to be kept as a hostage for years, he surely must have missed his home, not to mention he was bound to feel left out. And to be treated the way he was when he finally came back home??? Yikes.

It doesn't justify what he did, sure, but it helps us understand it a little. He obviously wasn't right. But he didn't do it just for the heck of it. He's a very complex character. I don't want him to die. I want him to fully recognize he was an asshole and I want him to try and find a way to make things right. And if he can't, I want him to live with those mistakes, those "shadows", and I want him to use them as an inspiration to become a better person and honor Robb, Ned, Cat and all the Starks in every way he can.

You're spot on! Theon has many flaws and while his fate may not be what he deserved, it was necessary for his development and will most likely change him for the better.

[Livus]

He obviously wasn't right. But he didn't do it just for the heck of it. He's a very complex character. I don't want him to die. I want him to fully recognize he was an asshole and I want him to try and find a way to make things right. And if he can't, I want him to live with those mistakes, those "shadows", and I want him to use them as an inspiration to become a better person and honor Robb, Ned, Cat and all the Starks in every way he can.

You're spot on! Theon has many flaws and while his fate may not be what he deserved, it was necessary for his development and will most likely change him for the better.

I tend to think this as well. The very things that have made me despise Theon ever since first reading his POV have always made me feel sorry for him - his weaknesses, ego, lack of self-control etc. It's a quandary I often find myself in - there seems to be, to me, a point beyond which we can only hold people accountable for their actions in a way that recognises what they have to work with in terms of who they are as people. If that makes any sense.

Theon going towards some kind of redemption and understanding would be th ebest outcome, for me too.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

I have mixed feelings about Theon. I don't think he deserved to be tortured like that. Sure, he betrayed Robb. Sure, he was an asshole. But I think that now, after everything he's been through, we'll see some change in him. I think it's sad, really, that he went against Robb and the Starks only because he wanted to prove himself to his father. He wasn't all that great before that, neither, but for me it was all a lie. Like a mask. It's not easy to be kept as a hostage for years, he surely must have missed his home, not to mention he was bound to feel left out. And to be treated the way he was when he finally came back home??? Yikes.

It doesn't justify what he did, sure, but it helps us understand it a little. He obviously wasn't right. But he didn't do it just for the heck of it. He's a very complex character. I don't want him to die. I want him to fully recognize he was an asshole and I want him to try and find a way to make things right. And if he can't, I want him to live with those mistakes, those "shadows", and I want him to use them as an inspiration to become a better person and honor Robb, Ned, Cat and all the Starks in every way he can.

When Jon Snow sorta-deserts, he tells Lord Commander Mormont "I am not afraid to die."

Mormont's response "I hope you're not afraid to LIVE."

Jaime remarks, in response to Bran surviving his fall, that he'd rather be dead than crippled (which of course becomes hilariously ironic later on). Even King Robert remarks on it being "cruel" to not put Bran out of his misery.

Even Asha thinks "better dead than... like this" when she gets her special package in the mail from "Ramsay Bolton Trueborn Lord Of Winterfell".

Brienne calls Jaime a coward for giving up after his hand's off. Why? This is why.

There are narrative situations where death is the easy way out for a character. Death is an end to the process of Facing Down The Consequences Of Your Actions. Once you execute someone you can't punish them anymore.

Easy is boring and unimaginative.

This is part of what Mormont means, what GRRM means for us via Mormont, when he says "I hope you're not afraid to live." In an honor-obsessed martial culture such as Westeros, Living With Shame is often tougher, and SCARIER, than dying.

"I can't fight. I can't fuck. I'm not a man anymore, in this society. I should just die, better that than live with dishonor and shame."

What then, happens to he who resolves to live in spite of his life being ruined? [like Varys]. How can Theon possibly attempt to finally, for the first time in the series, be his own man rather than Robb's Lackey or Balon's instrument or Ramsay's creature, after being rendered unable to "be a man" in the way Westeros usually defines manhood? Seeing that question answered is way more interesting than just watching him die, especially since there won't be any poetic justice in his death (Robb isn't around to be the one to kill him).

It is far more interesting to see Theon forced to survive, to endure being spit on and called Turncloak and Kinslayer (rightly or wrongly). To live with the horror of being made dickless (there's a reason it's often actually referred to as "manhood" in this setting) and have it all be fallout and consequence of decisions he had made because he was too mentally weak (not man enough? Irony, eh?) to take the other path. Which is not the same as calling his current predicament Just Punishment for his actions, anymore than this post is expressing preference for a "Living Hell" sentence.

Nevermind Stannis; Theon is worth more to GRRM alive than dead. As GRRM has Theon say in ADWD, answering the question of Why Are You Still Here, How Is It That You Still Live?

"The Gods," Theon says, "Are Not Yet Done With Me."

GRRM is not yet done with him.

[Wisenan69]

Because I loved the Staks from the beginning, I thought Theon's treachery was unforgivable; however, IMHO Theon has redeemed himself and is not even close to be the most evil character in ASOIAF; that title, I believe, has unmistakeable been the sole domain of Cersei. I do not wish the death of Theon, and certainly, no more punishment. He has had enough! I'm looking forward to read more Theon's chapters.

[Broken Fox]

Good post, Aerys Hilton.

[ghosts in winterfell]

When Jon Snow sorta-deserts, he tells Lord Commander Mormont "I am not afraid to die."

Mormont's response "I hope you're not afraid to LIVE."

Jaime remarks, in response to Bran surviving his fall, that he'd rather be dead than crippled (which of course becomes hilariously ironic later on). Even King Robert remarks on it being "cruel" to not put Bran out of his misery.

Even Asha thinks "better dead than... like this" when she gets her special package in the mail from "Ramsay Bolton Trueborn Lord Of Winterfell".

Brienne calls Jaime a coward for giving up after his hand's off. Why? This is why.

There are narrative situations where death is the easy way out for a character. Death is an end to the process of Facing Down The Consequences Of Your Actions. Once you execute someone you can't punish them anymore.

Easy is boring and unimaginative.

This is part of what Mormont means, what GRRM means for us via Mormont, when he says "I hope you're not afraid to live." In an honor-obsessed martial culture such as Westeros, Living With Shame is often tougher, and SCARIER, than dying.

"I can't fight. I can't fuck. I'm not a man anymore, in this society. I should just die, better that than live with dishonor and shame."

What then, happens to he who resolves to live in spite of his life being ruined? [like Varys]. How can Theon possibly attempt to finally, for the first time in the series, be his own man rather than Robb's Lackey or Balon's instrument or Ramsay's creature, after being rendered unable to "be a man" in the way Westeros usually defines manhood? Seeing that question answered is way more interesting than just watching him die, especially since there won't be any poetic justice in his death (Robb isn't around to be the one to kill him).

It is far more interesting to see Theon forced to survive, to endure being spit on and called Turncloak and Kinslayer (rightly or wrongly). To live with the horror of being made dickless (there's a reason it's often actually referred to as "manhood" in this setting) and have it all be fallout and consequence of decisions he had made because he was too mentally weak (not man enough? Irony, eh?) to take the other path. Which is not the same as calling his current predicament Just Punishment for his actions, anymore than this post is expressing preference for a "Living Hell" sentence.

Nevermind Stannis; Theon is worth more to GRRM alive than dead. As GRRM has Theon say in ADWD, answering the question of Why Are You Still Here, How Is It That You Still Live?

"The Gods," Theon says, "Are Not Yet Done With Me."

GRRM is not yet done with him.

I love it!

[Steelcan]

I like the Ironborn in general and Theon may have been less then admirable, but nobody deserves what he went through

[Livus]

Because I loved the Staks from the beginning, I thought Theon's treachery was unforgivable; however, IMHO Theon has redeemed himself and is not even close to be the most evil character in ASOIAF; that title, I believe, has unmistakeable been the sole domain of Cersei. I do not wish the death of Theon, and certainly, no more punishment. He has had enough! I'm looking forward to read more Theon's chapters.

But is Cersei evil or just deluded? I mean, she is really, really deluded, does that mean she isn't consciously choosing evil? To me this is Theon's problem as well, I wonder if he was ever really capable of making better decisions than the ones he did.

[Ser Onaventea Helms]

A very, very good read :) and I totally agree with you. I've loved both sides of this Greyjoy, the arrogant archer and the tormented weakling. His chapters in ACoK were very damn entertaining, far more entertaining than some of the others *cough* Catleyn *cough*. A part of me wants me to be at peace and die at Winterfell at his true home, but another part of me wants to continue reading his amazing Reek chapters and see him get back to the Iron Islands. God he's awesome.

[ghosts in winterfell]

But is Cersei evil or just deluded? I mean, she is really, really deluded, does that mean she isn't consciously choosing evil? To me this is Theon's problem as well, I wonder if he was ever really capable of making better decisions than the ones he did.

Cersei is another one who gets a lot of hate despite being far from the most evil person in Westeros.