Why I don't hate Theon Greyjoy

[Lady Sharya]

It probably started of as it usually did (consensually), but Theon was in desperate need to feel in control and has the unfortunate tendency to lash out at others to elevate himself, and he probably ignored her protests once he started to get out of control. It's his lowest point.

No...murdering innocent children & household staff was his low point! But please let's hear all the reasons Theon had no choices in his actions while Kyra had FULL agency to deny Theon's sexual demands!!

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

You need to calm down !!!!!!!!

When ghosts in winterfell referred to it as his lowest point, I believe it was in regards to how he had just had the millers boys killed. I don't have a Clash of Kings with me right now and I didn't remember that part being as graphic as it was.

I'm done arguing with people who insist that Theon is an evil character and broadly characterize him as a child murdering rapist. If that's all you take away from his chapters you're missing out. He's a very tragic character, which is more than I can say for the truly evil ones in the series.

[Lee-Sensei]

So, Kyra was sobbing in ecstasy? Because she was made to comply with Theon's sexual demands on several occasions means she was complicit in being given bruises & bite marks while being "fucked...with a fury..."

You men need to stop now or mods will lock this thread due to the insulting nature of your statements!

"Made to comply". You're certainly twisting things.

Two serving wenches stood beneath the sign of the Smoking Log, the local alehouse. When Theon Greyjoy called out to them, the younger girl turned red and covered her face. Theon spurred his mount to move up beside Robb. "Sweet Kyra," he said with a laugh. "She squirms like a weasel in bed, but say a word to her on the street, and she blushes pink as a maid. Did I ever tell you about the night that she and Bessa - "

"Not where my brother can hear, Theon," Robb warned him with a glance at Bran.

[Lady Sharya]

You need to calm down !!!!!!!!

When ghosts in winterfell referred to it as his lowest point, I believe it was in regards to how he had just had the millers boys killed. I don't have a Clash of Kings with me right now and I didn't remember that part being as graphic as it was.

I'm done arguing with people who insist that Theon is an evil character and broadly characterize him as a child murdering rapist. If that's all you take away from his chapters you're missing out. He's a very tragic character, which is more than I can say for the truly evil ones in the series.

Oh I'm much calmer than many poster get when encountered with statements apologizing for sexual assult. That's why I warned instead of attacked. It really is a taboo subject to argue over.

You have me confused with other posters. I haven't claimed he is evil, but he is (factually speaking) a child murderer & a rapist. You can defend him all day long but you can't deny he has in fact committed these deeds.

Gaining an understanding of this "tragic character" necessarily requires the acknowledgment of his bad behavior & flawed moral values. To not do so is to do EXACTLY what you accuse Theon unsympathizers of doing.

It isn't any wonder to see some sympathizes resort to strawman tactics (putting words in others mouths), pointing out worse characters as thou it somehow lessens Theon's crimes, and then downright criticism over others reading comprehension.

[Lil' Bird]

Robb started a war to avoid familial embarrassment. Does that make him evil?

I don't think that's why Robb started his war. I think he called his banners because his father was accused if treason and thrown in the black cells. He started his war once his father was executed for treason which no one actually believes Ned committed.

[Lee-Sensei]

I don't think that's why Robb started his war. I think he called his banners because his father was accused if treason and thrown in the black cells. He started his war once his father was executed for treason which no one actually believes Ned committed.

Ned admitted to his treason before being executed. Of course we know he's right, but Robb doesn't.

[Lil' Bird]

Ned admitted to his treason before being executed. Of course we know he's right, but Robb doesn't.

Even still, no one believed Ned was a traitor. No one.

Even those "loyal" to the throne. They knew he was "protecting" Sansa and Arya. When they get the letter from Sansa Cat knows the game that's being played

[Lee-Sensei]

Even still, no one believed Ned was a traitor. No one.

Even those "loyal" to the throne. They knew he was "protecting" Sansa and Arya. When they get the letter from Sansa Cat knows the game that's being played

Do we know that? Very few people knew about Cersei and Jaime. Even Tyrion didn't. IIRC it was just Varys, LF, Stannis and Pycelle. Stannis' letter only went out after Ned was executed and Robb had been fighting for quite some time.

So he went to war trying to avenge his dad and killed countless people when for all he knew Ned was guilty.

[Lady Sharya]

"Made to comply". You're certainly twisting things.

Two serving wenches stood beneath the sign of the Smoking Log, the local alehouse. When Theon Greyjoy called out to them, the younger girl turned red and covered her face. Theon spurred his mount to move up beside Robb. "Sweet Kyra," he said with a laugh. "She squirms like a weasel in bed, but say a word to her on the street, and she blushes pink as a maid. Did I ever tell you about the night that she and Bessa - ""Not where my brother can hear, Theon," Robb warned him with a glance at Bran.

Uhhh??.... Let me spell it out for ya here. This passage is taken from a point in the story before Theon took WF. It doesn't matter how many times Kyra consented to Theon when she had a CHOICE in the matter. Once Theon made himself an invading enemy & defacto Ruler, all bets are off for deciding how complicit Kyra may or may not be. At that point, Kyra has no choice but to comply with Theon's sexual demands, (hence my use of the wording "made to comply") however, I would refrain from calling their sexual encounters down right rape UNTIL she is "fucked...with fury..." leaving her sobbing & covered with bruises and bite marks.

So no, Theon didn't own her, nor was she an automatically complicit partner just because they had had sex before.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Lil' Bird, on 26 Jan 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

I don't think that's why Robb started his war. I think he called his banners because his father was accused if treason and thrown in the black cells. He started his war once his father was executed for treason which no one actually believes Ned committed.

That doesn't explain why he decided to become King in the North. The war would have been over much sooner if he had joined forces with Stannis.

[Lil' Bird]

Do we know that? Very few people knew about Cersei and Jaime. Even Tyrion didn't. IIRC it was just Varys, LF, Stannis and Pycelle. Stannis' letter only went out after Ned was executed and Robb had been fighting for quite some time.

So he went to war trying to avenge his dad and killed countless people when for all he knew Ned was guilty.

Tyrion knew about Jaime and Cersei.

He hints to as much in the very first book at breakfast when he says he'd love to hear what Bran would say if he were to wake up.

He knows.

[Broken Fox]

I think the term 'rape' is thrown around too loosely in these parts but I do consider what Theon did to Kyra to be rape. The girl was crying her eyes out and covered in bruises and bite marks. What the fuck else would it be.

[Lil' Bird]

That doesn't explain why he decided to become King in the North. The war would have been over much sooner if he had joined forces with Stannis.

He became King of the North because his banner men didn't want to follow Tommen or Stannis depending on who was the rightful heir.

[Lil' Bird]

I think the term 'rape' is thrown around too loosely in these parts but I do consider what Theon did to Kyra to be rape.

i though she went willingly to his bed? I'd have to read his chapters in acok again though

[Lee-Sensei]

Uhhh??.... Let me spell it out for ya here. This passage is taken from a point in the story before Theon took WF. It doesn't matter how many times Kyra consented to Theon when she had a CHOICE in the matter. Once Theon made himself an invading enemy & defacto Ruler, all bets are off for deciding how complicit Kyra may or may not be. At that point, Kyra has no choice but to comply with Theon's sexual demands, (hence my use of the wording "made to comply") however, I would refrain from calling their sexual encounters down right rape UNTIL she is "fucked...with fury..." leaving her sobbing & covered with bruises and bite marks.

So no, Theon didn't own her, nor was she an automatically complicit partner just because they had had sex before.

One moment he was asleep; the next, awake. Kyra nestled against him, one arm draped lightly over his, her breasts brushing his back. He could hear her breathing, soft and steady. The sheet was tangled about them. It was the black of night. The bedchamber was dark and still. What is it?

What is it? Did I hear something? Someone?

Wind sighed faintly against the shutters. Somewhere, far off, he heard the yowl of a cat in heat. Nothing else. Sleep, Greyjoy, he told himself. The castle is quiet, and you have guards posted. At your door, at the gates, on the armory.

He might have put it down to a bad dream, but he did not remember dreaming. Kyra had worn him out. Until Theon had sent for her, she had lived all of her eighteen years in the winter town without ever setting foot inside the walls of the castle. She came to him wet and eager and lithe as a weasel, and there had been a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark's own bed.

When he prodded Wex with the toe of his boot, the boy sat up and rubbed his eyes. "Make certain Bran Stark and his little brother are in their beds, and be quick about it."

"M'lord?" Kyra called sleepily.

"Go back to sleep, this does not concern you." Theon poured himself a cup of wine and drank it down. All the time he was listening, hoping to hear a howl. Too few men, he thought sourly. I have too few men. If Asha does not come . . .

She doesn't sound terribly unhappy.

That doesn't explain why he decided to become King in the North. The war would have been over much sooner if he had joined forces with Stannis.

Stannis only offered himself up after Robb had declared himself king, but I think once they found out about the incest they Robb should have given up his crown and declared for Stannis.

[Lady Sharya]

i though she went willingly to his bed? I'd have to read his chapters in acok again though

Read post 257 by Sansa_Stark who kindly provided the text....

[ghosts in winterfell]

No...murdering innocent children & household staff was his low point! But please let's hear all the reasons Theon had no choices in his actions while Kyra had FULL agency to deny Theon's sexual demands!!

All of those things happened around the same time, so yes, it's his lowest point. And I'm sorry, but wtf are you even talking about in that second sentence? Why wouldn't Kyra have every right to protest being mistreated?

I think the term 'rape' is thrown around too loosely in these parts but I do consider what Theon did to Kyra to be rape. The girl was crying her eyes out and covered in bruises and bite marks. What the fuck else would it be.

I'll do the most to defend Theon, but there is no way it could be brushed off as anything less.

i though she went willingly to his bed? I'd have to read his chapters in acok again though

He sent for her after he took over Winterfell.

Until Theon had sent for her, she had lived all of her eighteen years in the winter town without ever setting foot inside the walls of the castle. She came to him wet and eager and lithe as a weasel, and there had been a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark's own bed.

This seems to imply that she was indeed a willing participant in the beginning. Although perhaps rather dubiously, since he requested her presence. However, I don't think he was so far gone at that point that he would have forced her if she declined, he probably would have just found someone else who was willing.

[Lady Sharya]

One moment he was asleep; the next, awake.

Kyra nestled against him, one arm draped lightly over his, her breasts brushing his back. He could hear her breathing, soft and steady. The sheet was tangled about them. It was the black of night. The bedchamber was dark and still.

What is it? Did I hear something? Someone?Wind sighed faintly against the shutters. Somewhere, far off, he heard the yowl of a cat in heat. Nothing else. Sleep, Greyjoy, he told himself. The castle is quiet, and you have guards posted. At your door, at the gates, on the armory.He might have put it down to a bad dream, but he did not remember dreaming. Kyra had worn him out. Until Theon had sent for her, she had lived all of her eighteen years in the winter town without ever setting foot inside the walls of the castle. She came to him wet and eager and lithe as a weasel, and there had been a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark's own bed.

When he prodded Wex with the toe of his boot, the boy sat up and rubbed his eyes. "Make certain Bran Stark and his little brother are in their beds, and be quick about it.""M'lord?" Kyra called sleepily."Go back to sleep, this does not concern you." Theon poured himself a cup of wine and drank it down. All the time he was listening, hoping to hear a howl. Too few men, he thought sourly. I have too few men. If Asha does not come . . .

Again. You're twisting things.

The very nature of their individual power at the time to CHOOSE gives rise to a less than equal complacency. This is Theon's point of view if you recall. Are we supposed to consider Theon an astute observer in grasping the realities of ANY given situation?

I stand by the contention that Kyra was NOT raped ALL the while she had no real power to deny Theon, but that she WAS raped in the passage cited after the 'Miller Boy' fiasco.

edit: fixed quote box

[Lee-Sensei]

1) You're entitled to your own opinion, but not you're own facts. We have absolutely no reason to believe that Theon forced her to come and stay with him. If you want to believe he raped her after the Miller Boys that's you're choice, but it's still debatable.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Oh I'm much calmer than many poster get when encountered with statements apologizing for sexual assult. That's why I warned instead of attacked. It really is a taboo subject to argue over.

You have me confused with other posters. I haven't claimed he is evil, but he is (factually speaking) a child murderer & a rapist. You can defend him all day long but you can't deny he has in fact committed these deeds.

Gaining an understanding of this "tragic character" necessarily requires the acknowledgment of his bad behavior & flawed moral values. To not do so is to do EXACTLY what you accuse Theon unsympathizers of doing.

It isn't any wonder to see some sympathizes resort to strawman tactics (putting words in others mouths), pointing out worse characters as thou it somehow lessens Theon's crimes, and then downright criticism over others reading comprehension.

As long as we're consistent. Be sure to add kinslaying rapist to Tyrion's title as well.

I know people who have been raped, and I've seen what it can do to people first hand so I won't sit here and be branded as a sexual assault apologist. The reality we live in is different than the culture in Westeros. In the Seven Kingdoms, Robb breaking his betrothal to the Freys was deemed as a greater offense then Theon raping Kyra. Would I agree with that? No, that is ridiculous.

But this is a fictional world with fictional laws and fictional customs that differ from our own. If some of you choose to look at it differently than I do, that is your right and I shouldn't judge you for it. But don't you call me an apologist for sexual assault. I would never defend any man in today's day and age who did what Theon did to Kyra in real life, but I choose to view it diifferently in the books. Different era, different customs. Theon was a lord, Kyra was a tavern wench-- the dynamics were totally different.