Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 All of those things happened around the same time, so yes, it's his lowest point. And I'm sorry, but wtf are you even talking about in that second sentence? Why wouldn't Kyra have every right to protest being mistreated?For the same reason reason NO ONE ELSE in WF had a choice in what Theon was doing while holding them all captive. He sent for her after he took over Winterfell. Until Theon had sent for her, she had lived all of her eighteen years in the winter town without ever setting foot inside the walls of the castle. She came to him wet and eager and lithe as a weasel, and there had been a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark's own bed. This seems to imply that she was indeed a willing participant in the beginning. Although perhaps rather dubiously, since he requested her presence. However, I don't think he was so far gone at that point that he would have forced her if she declined, he probably would have just found someone else who was willing.But he didn't just find someone else did he? He did use force: "He sent for Kyra, kicked shut he door, climbed on top of her, and fucked the wench with a fury he'd never known was in him, By the time he finished, she was sobbing, her neck and breasts covered in bruises and bite marks" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Fox Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 No one's denying that Kyra was willing, it was what happened that night that made it rape. I mean c'mon, really. Why does these even need explaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil' Bird Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 No one's denying that Kyra was willing, it was what happened that night that made it rape. I mean c'mon, really. Why does these even need explaining.It for sure was a lot rougher than she would have likely suspected it would have been, she may have again went willingly but regretted it once she saw the "fury" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 No one's denying that Kyra was willing, it was what happened that night that made it rape. I mean c'mon, really. Why does these even need explaining.That is in fact what's happening. So, Kyra was sobbing in ecstasy? Because she was made to comply with Theon's sexual demands on several occasions means she was complicit in being given bruises & bite marks while being "fucked...with a fury..."You men need to stop now or mods will lock this thread due to the insulting nature of your statements! I can see why someone would argue that on that night it was rape, but Sharya's saying that it happened several times and nothing suggests that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 For the same reason reason NO ONE ELSE in WF had a choice in what Theon was doing while holding them all captive. I'm sorry, are you saying she has no right to complain about being abused? But he didn't just find someone else did he? He did use force: I'll repeat: This seems to imply that she was indeed a willing participant in the beginning. Although perhaps rather dubiously, since he requested her presence. However, I don't think he was so far gone at that point that he would have forced her if she declined, he probably would have just found someone else who was willing. The scene Sansa_Stark cited occurred later after the situation had spiraled out of control, not upon her immediate arrival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueEyedCrow Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 His chapters in ADWD were my favorite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil' Bird Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 His chapters in ADWD were my favorite!That's one thing I liked about the book better than his story in season 3. It was left ambiguous what exactly was done to Theon. (I mean if he was gelded or not) the show clarified that he indeed was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 His chapters in ADWD were my favorite! Mine as well! His chapters were definitely the highlight of ADWD, probably some of GRRM's best writing in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 That is in fact what's happening. I can see why someone would argue that on that night it was rape, but Sharya's saying that it happened several times and nothing suggests that. No, I have not said that Theon raped Kyra "several times." I stated just the opposite:Uhhh??.... Let me spell it out for ya here. This passage is taken from a point in the story before Theon took WF. It doesn't matter how many times Kyra consented to Theon when she had a CHOICE in the matter. Once Theon made himself an invading enemy & defacto Ruler, all bets are off for deciding how complicit Kyra may or may not be. At that point, Kyra has no choice but to comply with Theon's sexual demands, (hence my use of the wording "made to comply") however, I would refrain from calling their sexual encounters down right rape UNTIL she is "fucked...with fury..." leaving her sobbing & covered with bruises and bite marks.So no, Theon didn't own her, nor was she an automatically complicit partner just because they had had sex before. The very nature of their individual power at the time to CHOOSE gives rise to a less than equal complacency. This is Theon's point of view if you recall. Are we supposed to consider Theon an astute observer in grasping the realities of ANY given situation? I stand by the contention that Kyra was NOT raped ALL the while she had no real power to deny Theon, but that she WAS raped in the passage cited after the 'Miller Boy' fiasco.edit: fixed quote boxI think you are confusing the instances when I don't believe she had any real choice to deny Theon based upon him being in charge of WF and therefore she cannot be deemed have Complete willingness, with the ONE instance I believe he crossed the line and raped her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I'm sorry, are you saying she has no right to complain about being abused?No, I am saying that she wasn't in a position to DENY Theon or do much about anything he chose to do since neither did anyone else being held captive by him in WF. How is that not obvious?? The scene Sansa_Stark cited occurred later after the situation had spiraled out of control, not upon her immediate arrival.What difference does it make the question of whether or not Theon raped Kyra? Since you have already agreed that that instance can be viewed as as rape, why are you continuing to argue the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 No, I have not said that Theon raped Kyra "several times." I stated just the opposite: I think you are confusing the instances when I don't believe she had any real choice to deny Theon based upon him being in charge of WF and therefore she cannot be deemed have Complete willingness, with the ONE instance I believe he crossed the line and raped her. I'm not confusing anything. That was a direct quote. If you changed your mind that's fine, but you can't just pretend you didn't say it. You can argue that one night and only that one night that it was rape. The other times were consensual and nothing even remotely suggests they weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I'm not confusing anything. That was a direct quote. If you changed your mind that's fine, but you can't just pretend you didn't say it. You can argue that one night and only that one night that it was rape. The other times were consensual and nothing even remotely suggests they weren't.I have not changed my mind. Show the quote where I said Theon raped Kyra on any other occasion than the one cited. You have misunderstood my meaning when I said she was "made to comply" and I have tried to clarify it several times now. Because you chose to ignore the misunderstanding does not make your interpretation of what I said correct, nor does it change what I meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 No, I am saying that she wasn't in a position to DENY Theon or do much about anything he chose to do since neither did anyone else being held captive by him in WF. How is that not obvious?? What difference does it make the question of whether or not Theon raped Kyra? Since you have already agreed that that instance can be viewed as as rape, why are you continuing to argue the point? You've spent the last several pages going on about how Theon is such a god awful person, so I'm just confused as to why you seem to be downplaying one of his worst offenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayjew Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 I honestly don't remember him raping anyone either.If anyone has the quote? This has been brought up a quite a lot, but what happens is he is too aggressive during intercourse, and causes her physical harm. I wouldn't classify it as rape though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayjew Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 So, Kyra was sobbing in ecstasy? Because she was made to comply with Theon's sexual demands on several occasions means she was complicit in being given bruises & bite marks while being "fucked...with a fury..."You men need to stop now or mods will lock this thread due to the insulting nature of your statements! Nobody on this thread is certainly advocating his actions, he committed indecent assault upon Kyra in the process of having sex with her. It isn't rape, he even forbade it upon taking Winterfell. Certainly he took out his frustrations in a harmful manner upon her. There's a very thin line here obviously, and as ghosts I think stated early on in this thread isn't his finest moment. But calling it rape isn't accurate, it started consensually, as it would have throughout his stay in Winterfell, but this particular session caused her a lot of strife. Don't think of me as justifying his actions, it is bad, but I stil wouldn't call it rape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayjew Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 So, Kyra was sobbing in ecstasy? Because she was made to comply with Theon's sexual demands on several occasions means she was complicit in being given bruises & bite marks while being "fucked...with a fury..."You men need to stop now or mods will lock this thread due to the insulting nature of your statements!Nobody on this thread is certainly advocating his actions, he committed indecent assault upon Kyra in the process of having sex with her. It isn't rape, he even forbade it upon taking Winterfell. Certainly he took out his frustrations in a harmful manner upon her. There's a very thin line here obviously, and as ghosts I think stated early on in this thread isn't his finest moment. But calling it rape isn't accurate, it started consensually, as it would have throughout his stay in Winterfell, but this particular session caused her a lot of strife. Don't think of me as justifying his actions, it is bad, but I stil wouldn't call it rape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnysd Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Mine as well! His chapters were definitely the highlight of ADWD, probably some of GRRM's best writing in the series. Shocker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 You've spent the last several pages going on about how Theon is such a god awful person, so I'm just confused as to why you seem to be downplaying one of his worst offenses.I'm not downplaying it, just addressing it from an objective view. The murders were worse than raping Kyra but he comitt thoses crimes. It's true I didn't like his character from the start when he laughed at the NW man's head rolling and seemed a bit too eager to kill the puppies, but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say Theon has committed atrocities. However, I'm not unsympathetic to what Ramsey has put him through, and it's unfortunate that he didn't gain a little compassion for others until it it was too late to earn the respect he so vary badly desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayjew Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 His chapters in ADWD were my favorite! Totally agree with you ! Loved reading them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I have not changed my mind. Show the quote where I said Theon raped Kyra on any other occasion than the one cited. You have misunderstood my meaning when I said she was "made to comply" and I have tried to clarify it several times now. Because you chose to ignore the misunderstanding does not make your interpretation of what I said correct, nor does it change what I meant.You're at it again. "Made to comply" implies that she didn't want to be there, but had no choice. Provide a quote please. I'm not downplaying it, just addressing it from an objective view. The murders were worse than raping Kyra but he comitt thoses crimes.It's true I didn't like his character from the start when he laughed at the NW man's head rolling and seemed a bit too eager to kill the puppies, but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say Theon has committed atrocities. However, I'm not unsympathetic to what Ramsey has put him through, and it's unfortunate that he didn't gain a little compassion for others until it it was too late to earn the respect he so vary badly desired.It's interesting that you bring that up because Ned Stark was the one who killed the guy and Ned Stark was the one who ordered them to kill the puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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