Shryke Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Just to weigh in on the Long Price/Daniel Abraham thing before this ridiculous argument puts someone off for life- I don't find Brienne spectacularly interesting, and I fucking adore Abraham. Suggesting that someone won't like those books because they didn't like what you like about one smallish aspect of aSoIaF is presumptuous to say the least.Quite apart from anything else, Abraham is a better writer so even if they're aiming for the same goals (which they're not overall, though they have similar aspects, especially in Dagger and Coin), his execution is better. I'd agree somewhat. I think if you don't get or like what's going on in Brienne's chapters, Abraham will still be good but you'll probably come out thinking the characters are kinda flat or the books only ok or the like. I've seen those reactions alot. There's plenty of straight plot-stuff that goes on in his books but it's the more subtle shadings of characterization and ideas that make them great imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Hmm... And here I thought this was going to be another boring night. But thank Mog this thread came to the rescue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 And I would add this to the Brienne argument. I think exploring the character and her issue would have made a great novel all on its own. But I find them pointless and boring in the context of Asoiaf. How? Brienne's character and issues are basically directly on the nose for what is one of the series' major themes. It's almost silly how on the nose it is (but I think GRRM has a deft enough hand to make it work, judging from the end of AFFC/ADWD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I'd agree somewhat. I think if you don't get or like what's going on in Brienne's chapters, Abraham will still be good but you'll probably come out thinking the characters are kinda flat or the books only ok or the like. I've seen those reactions alot. There's plenty of straight plot-stuff that goes on in his books but it's the more subtle shadings of characterization and ideas that make them great imo.You are making a big leap here i think by linking the fact the someone find Brienne chapters boring with a dislike for subtle characterization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 How? Brienne's character and issues are basically directly on the nose for what is one of the series' major themes. It's almost silly how on the nose it is (but I think GRRM has a deft enough hand to make it work, judging from the end of AFFC/ADWD)Yes it's one of the major theme of the series. But her chapters does nothing to advance the plot, which has been largely stalled for the last two books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 You are making a big leap here i think by linking the fact the someone find Brienne chapters boring with a dislike for subtle characterization. I'm making a potential conclusion based on the implications of the specifics the thread has been given of why someone doesn't like Brienne's chapters, not just on the fact that said person doesn't. To wit: Yes it's one of the major theme of the series. But her chapters does nothing to advance the plot, which has been largely stalled for the last two books. (even though they do cover several important things, establish several details and set up an important confrontation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Just bought A shadow in summer. We'll know for sure if there any relation to finding Brienne's chapters boring.edit. Just read the 1st sentence. Not bored yet!Edit2: Finished reading the prologue. Really interesting so far. And nobody died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Abercrombie Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Man, oh man. Back in the day (yesterday) this thread was a wonderful place, full of polite discussion, begging to differ, warm recommendations and folks helping old ladies across the road. Now it's all turned to shit. Thanks, GRRM. Thanks for destroying the thread I loved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 Man, oh man. Back in the day (yesterday) this thread was a wonderful place, full of polite discussion, begging to differ, warm recommendations and folks helping old ladies across the road. Now it's all turned to shit. Thanks, GRRM. Thanks for destroying the thread I loved.Ironically, those scoffing at chivalry, came like knights in shining armor to defend the honor of the Maid of Tarth when her chapters were accused of being boring and out of place in a story about the game of thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suttree Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Have you given Pat Rothfuss a go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Man, oh man. Back in the day (yesterday) this thread was a wonderful place, full of polite discussion, begging to differ, warm recommendations and folks helping old ladies across the road. Now it's all turned to shit. Thanks, GRRM. Thanks for destroying the thread I loved. We saw you rush in and followed your lead to bring misery and grimdarkitude to all corners of the internts. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 Have you given Pat Rothfuss a go?Not yet, but it is on my list of things to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Ironically, those scoffing at chivalry, came like knights in shining armor to defend the honor of the Maid of Tarth when her chapters were accused of being boring and out of place in a story about the game of thrones. :huh:? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Northman Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Well, the link to Joe Abercrombie's Twitter led me to a good remark he made there, one I pondered before making my last post here. "Traditional" fantasy tropes are quite modern ones, 20th century, or mid/late 19th century at best. Before that, you didn't have much "fantasy" as such, you had fairy tales - which partly explains where some of the modern tropes could come from, though fairy tales rarely were as neat as Disney versions -, but earlier, you had legends and myths.And these, be it Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Iliad or Icelandic sagas, weren't always nice with black/white; you had plenty of grey characters, plenty of people doing bad actions and not being punished for them - or getting away with it for a very long time. Heck, you had heroes acting like douches with other fellow humans as well as with some gods and gods acting like scumbags towards mankind as a whole. And some had pretty graphic and violent battle scenes - some suspected Homer to have taken parts on genuine battles, considering some descriptions of wounds you can't make up without direct experience - but not being an expert in melee fighting or wounds, I can't say if it's a solid consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Thinking of the pre-Tolkien fantasists: - Lord Dunsany. Incredibly cynical (The Hoard of the Gibbelins being just one example).- E.R. Eddison. Was actually accused by Tolkien of glorifying cruelty.- Robert E. Howard. Civilisation is doomed. Nihilistic, rather than cynical.- Clark Ashton Smith. Delights in decadence.- H.P. Lovecraft (if we count him as a fantasist). Never mind civilisation being doomed, humanity is doomed. And it doesn't matter.- Fritz Leiber. His protagonists are crooks, and his style is laced with cynical wit.- Jack Vance. The Sun may go out at any time, so let's have some fun!- Mervyn Peake. Gothic horror meets Dickens. Apart from William Morris, and possibly E.R. Burroughs, none of the pre-Tolkienians went with "nice safe fantasy". Neither did Tolkien for that matter, but that's an argument for another thread. Suffice to say that the weepy-eyed nostalgia for light fantasy is much like weepy eyed nostalgia for the Family Values Era: hankering after a past that never happened. Insofar as any age of fantasy fits, you'd be looking at the 1980s, and even that had Stephen Donaldson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Thinking of the pre-Tolkien fantasists: - Lord Dunsany. Incredibly cynical (The Hoard of the Gibbelins being just one example). - E.R. Eddison. Was actually accused by Tolkien of glorifying cruelty. - Robert E. Howard. Civilisation is doomed. Nihilistic, rather than cynical. - Clark Ashton Smith. Delights in decadence. - H.P. Lovecraft (if we count him as a fantasist). Never mind civilisation being doomed, humanity is doomed. And it doesn't matter. - Fritz Leiber. His protagonists are crooks, and his style is laced with cynical wit. - Jack Vance. The Sun may go out at any time, so let's have some fun! - Mervyn Peake. Gothic horror meets Dickens. Apart from William Morris, and possibly E.R. Burroughs, none of the pre-Tolkienians went with "nice safe fantasy". Neither did Tolkien for that matter, but that's an argument for another thread. Suffice to say that the weepy-eyed nostalgia for light fantasy is much like weepy eyed nostalgia for the Family Values Era: hankering after a past that never happened. Insofar as any age of fantasy fits, you'd be looking at the 1980s, and even that had Stephen Donaldson. :agree: Not that I've really read much of it, but from what I know most of the light High Fantasy was Lotr imitations with less substance. I guess you could tar Wheel of Time under that brush as well which I have read in part. Unlike others in this thread, I don't think this is an awful, cynical age of fantasy fiction - I think it's a great new era. We've come further into the mainstream and we've come out from under Tolkien's formidable shadow a bit more, where are stories can be inspired not dominated by his influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 :huh:? Isn't the whole concept of a knight in shining armor coming to the rescue of a helpless maiden, who then falls hopelessly in love with him a bit contrary to feminism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 :agree: Not that I've really read much of it, but from what I know most of the light High Fantasy was Lotr imitations with less substance. I guess you could tar Wheel of Time under that brush as well which I have read in part. Unlike others in this thread, I don't think this is an awful, cynical age of fantasy fiction - I think it's a great new era. We've come further into the mainstream and we've come out from under Tolkien's formidable shadow a bit more, where are stories can be inspired not dominated by his influence. I don't think it's an awful age of fantasy fiction. I think I've been reading ASOIAF for a few months now and want to read something less bleak at the moment. As for family value era, things are certainly different now than they were when I was a kid. Some things were better, some were not. I has nothing to do with nostalgia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 As for family value era, things are certainly different now than they were when I was a kid. Some things were better, some were not. I has nothing to do with nostalgia. The biggest difference is that you were a kid, and now you aren't. Growing up brings a different perspective on the world. But seriously, the world has always been a complex, messed up place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 Well, when I was a kid, teachers were allowed to pat you on the shoulder. Now, it's forbidden, for fear of being sued for sexual abuse. And my cousin who works with children 4 and 5 years old in the summer is forbidden to put sunscreen on them for the same reason. So you got kids of 4 years old that are asked to put their own sunscreen so they can go play under the sun. Imagine how well that work. And just ask some teachers who have been doing their job for 30 years. 30 years ago, when a child misbehaved and the teacher met the parent, they would punish the child. Nowadays, in the same situation, the parents gets angry with the teacher. It's not out of my beautiful memories of childhood with butterfly and unicorns mind you. It comes from most teachers I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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