Emmit Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Ned had one of two thoughts about Lyanna and Rhaegar: 1) Lyanna was kidnapped and held against her will by Rhaegar, or2) Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar (Do we as readers really know if she was kidnapped or went willingly? I mean, I think the majority believe she went willingly, but that doesn't make it so.) I get the impression that Ned thought she was kidnapped. Certainly Robert thought she was kidnapped, he started a war over it. As far as we know the entire kingdom thought she was kidnapped. So Ned didn't walk up to the TOJ and ask to see his sister. He was rescuing her. He was attacking. From the conversation that Ned dreams while on the milk of the poppy, he was talking to the KG, but he wasn't asking for their permission; he was telling them that there was no longer a Targaryen King for them to serve. They knew differently. Certainly, at no time in that conversation did the KG tell Ned that Lyanna was pregnant. The KG did not want Ned to know. They felt he was a threat to the soon to be born King. And Ned still doesn't know about the baby. He is probably confused. He is probably wondering why they are there. The pregnant Rhaella and Viserys are at Dragonstone. From what he can tell, these guys are keeping him from his kidnapped and defiled sister just for spite. (At this point the only people who know Lyanna is pregnant are Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the KG at the TOJ. We can assume none of the other Targaryens knew. Conjecture indeed, but Master at Arms Darry never mentioned it to Viserys or Dany when they were young.) Imagine his surprise when he goes upstairs and finds his sister in labor, and she informs him (between contractions) that she went willingly. Imagine her surprise when he tells her the Rhaegar and most of the Targaryen Dynasty are dead. Ned and Lyanna now realize that this boy is the rightful King of the Seven Kingdoms, but will certainly be put to death by her (ex)fiancée and his best friend... because the power has changed. He does have a secret to keep, doesn't he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binhorde Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Actually, just the opposite in my opinion. This piece of information that Martin gives you is further proof that the theory is correct if you ask me. Their now singular and sole duty was to protect the heir and future king at all costs, and damn the fact that the child's uncle and brother of the child's mother was there. Perhaps they anticipated Ned would not harm the child, but that is not their duty to act based on that. As they even say they swore a vow. And here comes the well known best friend and field commander of the man leading the armed Rebellion, with 6 other people at his disposal. They would have failed in their life's work if they simply stood aside and said, oh it's the child's uncle he won't hurt him. That was not what they were sworn to do. They were the Kingsguard, and sworn knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Actually, just the opposite in my opinion. This piece of information that Martin gives you is further proof that the theory is correct if you ask me. Their now singular and sole duty was to protect the heir and future king at all costs, and damn the fact that the child's uncle and brother of the child's mother was there. Perhaps they anticipated Ned would not harm the child, but that is not their duty to act based on that. As they even say they swore a vow. And here comes the well known best friend and field commander of the man leading the armed Rebellion, with 6 other people at his disposal. They would have failed in their life's work if they simply stood aside and said, oh it's the child's uncle he won't hurt him. That was not what they were sworn to do. They were the Kingsguard, and sworn knights. This is gold, plus we do not know what sort of information about the Sack of KL is floating around at that point. Early reports could have easily implied that Ned was there and responsible for Elia's and her children's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pellinore Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 An armed group rides up on the place where the Princes latest squeeze is being kept. If R+L=J, then she may have been counted (especially if married) as royal family. If Rhaegar says no Ned................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 You know, they had a reliable source for exactly what kind of person Ned was in the Tower with them. They'd lived with her for months and should have formed an opinion by then as to what her judgement was like. IMO, I can't see why they didn't say to Ned, "Your sister wants to speak to you. If you will accept our word of honor as KG that we will not harm you or take you hostage, you may leave your weapons outside and come in alone to speak to her." They could have hoped that Lyanna might convince Ned to vow silence about Jon's existence until they can smuggle him safely out of the country, or even maybe help them to do so. And if Lyanna failed to convince him - they could honorably escort Ned outside to his friends, hand him his sword, and THEN try to kill them all. IMO, the only reason they didn't try such a sensible plan was that they considered Lyanna a prisoner whose wishes and judgement they had no obligation to respect. Only problem here: she was raised at Winterfell whereas he was fostered in the Eyrie, and regardless, you do remember Lyanna still fearing until Ned promised? If Lyanna wasn't wholly sure he would protect her son, what are the KG going to do, take their chances? I think people overestimate Ned's loyalty to Robert. Yes Ned is loyal to Robert but first and foremost he's loyal to his family. Lyanna and Ned were close to each other, Ned would never never NEVER hand Jon over to someone who would hurt him, with or without Lyanna's promise.Also wasn't Lyanna yelling for Ned? I'm sure the Kingsguard knew Ned wouldn't hurt his sister or her baby and by right Ned is the legal guardian of Lyanna's child if the child's paternal family is not possible of taking care of it. Unclear, could just as well be Vayon Poole calling considering how Lyanna called him 'Ned'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmit Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 An armed group rides up on the place where the Princes latest squeeze is being kept. If R+L=J, then she may have been counted (especially if married) as royal family. If Rhaegar says no Ned................. An armed group [including the number two bad buy in the realm] rides up on the place where the Prince's latest squeeze is being kept, and tells them that the King, the heir, and the heir's kids are all dead. Regardless if Lyanna was considered royal family or not, certainly the soon to be baby is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think people overestimate Ned's loyalty to Robert. Yes Ned is loyal to Robert but first and foremost he's loyal to his family. Lyanna and Ned were close to each other, Ned would never never NEVER hand Jon over to someone who would hurt him, with or without Lyanna's promise.Also wasn't Lyanna yelling for Ned? I'm sure the Kingsguard knew Ned wouldn't hurt his sister or her baby and by right Ned is the legal guardian of Lyanna's child if the child's paternal family is not possible of taking care of it.We see Ned loyal first and foremost to the family fourteen years later. ToJ was most probably the first time he had to choose between family and honour, and on top of it, the choice was treason to his king and friend. He had lost father and brother, had to fight for his life, had lost friends... it was no clear thing that he would automatically choose family, and that's why there was fear in Lyanna's eyes. And if his own sister on her deathbed could not be sure that he would grant her last wish, the KG couldn't take any chances. In the dream, he is addressed as "Lord Eddard". That's not the way Lyanna would have addressed him, that's Vayon Poole trying to wake him and his voice got mixed into the dream. I get the impression that Ned thought she was kidnapped. Certainly Robert thought she was kidnapped, he started a war over it. He didn't. Jon Arryn did, because the other option was to have Ned and Robert beheaded. As far as we know the entire kingdom thought she was kidnapped.As far as we know, we hear this version solely from Robert and Bran. Everyone else thinks that Rhaegar was a decent guy. Imagine his surprise when he goes upstairs and finds his sister in labor, and she informs him (between contractions) that she went willinglyGiven his choice of companions, even if he didn't know that a child was involved, he clearly knew that the circumstances in which Lyanna would be found had better not become public knowledge. Imagine her surprise when he tells her the Rhaegar and most of the Targaryen Dynasty are dead.Unless the KG kept the information from her, she knew already. He does have a secret to keep, doesn't he.On that we agree :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 My guess is Rhaegar had ordered them to let no one in, and they were still following that order. The only thing that makes sense. And perhaps they were looking for a way to die in battle due to the end of the Targaryen dynasty (although as many have pointed out they could have just gone to Essos to protect Viserys and Dany). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 that one quote from Ned does not suggest that Ned thought Rhaegar was decent. I see it as neutral. Also lots of people from Dorne should dislike Rhaegar. Seeing that one ssm at least inplies this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebeber Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 My guess is Rhaegar had ordered them to let no one in, and they were still following that order. The only thing that makes sense. And perhaps they were looking for a way to die in battle due to the end of the Targaryen dynasty (although as many have pointed out they could have just gone to Essos to protect Viserys and Dany).This, pretty much. They were following Rhaegars orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Even Aerys didn't trust Rhaegar. Of course he was a scumshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Elia deserved better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 If they were protecting their king why were they all standing outside? Why wasn't one of them standing guard on the door to the bed-chamber per standing orders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 If they were protecting their king why were they all standing outside? Why wasn't one of them standing guard on the door to the bed-chamber per standing orders? Because 3 to 7 stand a better chance than 2 to 7? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 This is the question that always bothered me but I seriously doubt the KG thought Ned would hurt Lyanna and baby Jon. When they say our knees don't bend easily I think that was their way of fulfilling their vows to the royal family. But if you think about it, them dying doesn't help anybody in that Tower if they are worried about Ned being an empty headed Robert stooge. They likely knew he'd protect the girl and the baby and decided they should fall with the kingdom. I think the fight was more about the war than fear for Jon or Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Beyond the Wall Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 The KG were holding to their duty. In this world sometimes duty trumps logic ;) I am surprised their isn't or hasn't been a (troll) post with "What if Robert hadn't been injured by Rhaegar and had arrived at the TOJ"Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizzelle Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think you can actually remove Jon from the situation and it would play out exactly the same. They are the Kings Guard, Ned is a leader of the rebel army. Whenever they met, they were going to fight till one side was dead. (Why they are stood there is of course the thing that matters, and has been discussed to death) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 This, pretty much. They were following Rhaegars orders. Except they didn't say "We have orders", but "We swore a vow". And anyway, why should they be given specific orders when protecting Jon would be their duty anyway. It's like saying that Gared shouldn't have been beheaded as noone "ordered" him not to desert? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall Tyrion Lannister! Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 probably on orders from rhaegar not to let anyone pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think you can actually remove Jon from the situation and it would play out exactly the same. They are the Kings Guard, Ned is a leader of the rebel army. Whenever they met, they were going to fight till one side was dead. (Why they are stood there is of course the thing that matters, and has been discussed to death) Why should they fight to the death if Jon was out of the equation? Ned offered them honourable surrender, offered them to retreat to do their Kingsguard duty to Viserys. He clearly respected them and didn't want to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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