Sansa's Opening Move

[Hypnomagica]

The objective was to determine what Sansa would do first given that she has dominion of the Vale and the expertise required to act accordingly

The thing is, Sansa can't rule the Vale. She is too young but much more importantly, she has no resources. She has no wealth, no men-at-arms, no intelligence officers, no dragons, or even any friends outside of Baelish. If she marries the next Lord of the Vale her postion will be entirely reliant on him. The only way she can attain any resources of her own is if the knights of the Vale manage to capture Winterfell and the North, which is obviously doable but even then, if Tommen is found she will have no rightful claim to the throne.

Sansa may yet become a player but she has no assets to play on the level that some people seem to expect.

[Cas Stark]

Presumably, if she marries Harry and then he dies, she would then be lady of the vale, or same with LF, if she married him and then he died then she would have control of the Vale. Otherwise, I don't see how she would get this army doing her bidding.

[Hypnomagica]

without being the monster/psychopath that Littlefinger is.

In what way is Baelish a psychopath? He has never displayed any joy when killing, nor has he ever given any indication of sadism, his reasons for killing people have always been perfectly logical. You can call him a monster if you'd like but if he is a monster, he is an amoral one.

I feel like he has realized that it's getting out of hand, so she is in great danger.

How? In what way? the last we saw of both these characters, Baelish was telling divulging his grand plan to win her back the North, there is no indication at all that she has grown beyond his ability to control.

The only person who gains here is Littlefinger. Petyr only cares about Petyr, despite what one may think. He doesn't give two s**** about Sansa, nor about Cat, or anyone for that matter. Littlefinger is using Sansa.

The amount of evidence to contradict this statement is actually staggering. Yes, he is certainly using her for his own gains, all characters use each other just like in real life but he obviously cares about her. He is taking obvious pains to teach Sansa the game. Everyone recognizes this yet somehow seem to believe that it will lead to Sansa turning on him, without any reason why she would.

Whatever Baelish has planned for Sansa, it obviously includes her being able to navigate court intrigue and understand the way Baelish himself plays the game.

The effort he is putting into this makes no sense if he simply wishes to off her once she becomes inconvenient. Moreover, Baelish has only caused three deaths in the series, that we know of, and all of them were more the other person's fault then Baelish.

Jon Arryn got offed when he was about to start a war with the Lannisters which they might well have lost, Baelish likely did not want to be so firmly attached to a ship likely to sink, he prefers his breathing room. Also, Jon Arryn was never his ally, Lyssa Arryn was.

The Drunk Knight whose name I cannot be bothered to remember was simply a lowly pawn and a loose end that needed tieing.

Lyssa Arryn was a jealous psycho who was an obvious liability.

He has given almost everyone he has ever betrayed the chance to save themselves with reason and only kills them when their existence becomes a net negative.

[Mourneblade]

Her father was ultimately going down regardless of what Baelish did, LF just chose to go for the winning side, you will recall that he gave Ned the perfect opportunity to save himself. Not that it matters because Sansa does not KNOW that, she has no reason to ever suspect that Petyr had anything to do with her father's capture. Joffrey is the sole person responsible for his death as far as we know.

His murdering of Lysa was probably a net positive for everyone involved, that woman was insane, poison to realm, and all around bad leader. Not saying that what he did was morally right, only that it was the only logical thing to do in his situation.

My point is that from Sansa's view, LF saved her from King Landing. her insane aunt and is now conspiring to marry her to a future Great Lord and help her win back her ancestral seat of Winterfell. And she has no reason to suspect otherwise, even his convincing Lysa to murder he husband should have little effect because she did not know or care about Jon Arryn.

(Edited for errors.)

This is solid, for the most part.

In her Eyes Joff killed her Father.

Littlefinger did save here from Kings Landing, although not sure how she feels about Dontos's death.

Littlefinger saves her from psycho aunt, still do not know how she will handle the cover up and Lysa's confession.

She IS finally showing a spark of second level thinking that does not include a fairytale reference guide.

Littlefinger wants her for himself IMHO, but he needs to unite the Vale under his leadership, I think he will accomplish both or close to it. Sansa is going to be while on getting up to speed on manipulation.

One thing though, if she were to find out that LF betrayed her father, after she has a solid grasp of the Game, she will be his downfall. Sansa right now is his Achilles Heel, there is no killing her or outing her or any of that. His desire for her is her plot armor and will blind him.

I think then and only then She can take control of the Vale. Not as some Joan of Arc, but as a quiet soft spoken Lady with Steel Words.

[Hypnomagica]

Presumably, if she marries Harry and then he dies, she would then be lady of the vale, or same with LF

No, she would only become Lady of the Vale if she and Harry produced an heir, without that, his death would simply lead to the next person int tline of succession.

In the case of Baelish she would be left with little power at all. Remember that Baelish is only Lord Protector so long as he is the guardian of Sweet Robin, that's it. He is the current heir, once he dies or grows into his legal status, any legitimate claim to power Baelish might have in the Vale goes away.

[Cas Stark]

No, she would only become Lady of the Vale if she and Harry produced an heir, without that, his death would simply lead to the next person int tline of succession.

In the case of Baelish she would be left with little power at all. Remember that Baelish is only Lord Protector so long as he is the guardian of Sweet Robin, that's it. He is the current heir, once he dies or grows into his legal status, any legitimate claim to power Baelish might have in the Vale goes away.

So then the only way is if she marries Robin and he dies. Well, that would certainly be controversial and Sansa playing the game. So, then realistically, unless the Vale lords themselves go all rogue and crazy, she's not getting control over the Vale army.

[Mourneblade]

So then the only way is if she marries Robin and he dies. Well, that would certainly be controversial and Sansa playing the game. So, then realistically, unless the Vale lords themselves go all rogue and crazy, she's not getting control over the Vale army.

Option #3... Marries Littlefinger, Littlefinger Dies, Lady Protector of the Vale with Robin still alive, but completely manipulated.

[Cas Stark]

Option #3... Marries Littlefinger, Littlefinger Dies, Lady Protector of the Vale with Robin still alive, but completely manipulated.

Yes, that would work, but she has to be outed as Sansa Stark for that to happen, and technically, she can't marry Harry the Heir can she, or she can because the marriage wasn't consumated? It would still have to be annulled though by someone, for it to be legal. Which kind of makes you wonder if LF intends for her to be married to Harry at all, or if he assumes Tyrion is dead?

[Hypnomagica]

If she married Sweet Robin and he died, it would be the same situation as if she married to Harry, she would have no power unless she'd birthed an heir and that obviously isn't happening with Sweet Robin.

Marries Littlefinger, Littlefinger Dies, Lady Protector of the Vale with Robin still alive, but completely manipulated.

Titles like 'Lord Protector' don't work like that. It is possible but she is barely more than a child herself, it is deeply unlikely that she would be allowed to care for Sweet Robin in such a high office. And even if she was, when he dies or gets a few years older, she loses the power.

[OldGimletEye]

Yes, that would work, but she has to be outed as Sansa Stark for that to happen, and technically, she can't marry Harry the Heir can she, or she can because the marriage wasn't consumated? It would still have to be annulled though by someone, for it to be legal. Which kind of makes you wonder if LF intends for her to be married to Harry at all, or if he assumes Tyrion is dead?

Yeah, I was always kind of suspicious of LF's plans here. Not sure if he was giving the full story.

[Hypnomagica]

This is solid, for the most part.

In her Eyes Joff killed her Father.

Littlefinger did save here from Kings Landing, although not sure how she feels about Dontos's death.

Littlefinger saves her from psycho aunt, still do not know how she will handle the cover up and Lysa's confession.

She IS finally showing a spark of second level thinking that does not include a fairytale reference guide.

Littlefinger wants her for himself IMHO, but he needs to unite the Vale under his leadership, I think he will accomplish both or close to it. Sansa is going to be while on getting up to speed on manipulation.

One thing though, if she were to find out that LF betrayed her father, after she has a solid grasp of the Game, she will be his downfall. Sansa right now is his Achilles Heel, there is no killing her or outing her or any of that. His desire for her is her plot armor and will blind him.

I think then and only then She can take control of the Vale. Not as some Joan of Arc, but as a quiet soft spoken Lady with Steel Words.

I largely agree, though I do not think that Baelish is above murdering Sansa if he absolutely has to, I think she would have to really fuck him over before he would be willing to kill her.

That said, the only people still alive who could tell her about Baelish' betrayal og Ned are Cersei, who she would have no reason to believe, and Petyr himself, so it is very unlikely that she will ever find out about that.

[Hypnomagica]

Which kind of makes you wonder if LF intends for her to be married to Harry at all, or if he assumes Tyrion is dead?

Tyrion's failure to consummate the marriage has been stated in cannon to allow for an annulment, unless I am very much mistaken.

[Cas Stark]

I largely agree, though I do not think that Baelish is above murdering Sansa if he absolutely has to, I think she would have to really fuck him over before he would be willing to kill her.

That said, the only people still alive who could tell her about Baelish' betrayal og Ned are Cersei, who she would have no reason to believe, and Petyr himself, so it is very unlikely that she will ever find out about that.

I'm not sure that is true, though sometimes the books and show do intermix, but didn't LF draw the knife on him in full view of a room full of people including members of the KG who are still alive? Wouldn't the Hound probably know of this also?

[Another Locust]

The thing is, Sansa can't rule the Vale. She is too young but much more importantly, she has no resources. She has no wealth, no men-at-arms, no intelligence officers, no dragons, or even any friends outside of Baelish. If she marries the next Lord of the Vale her postion will be entirely reliant on him. The only way she can attain any resources of her own is if the knights of the Vale manage to capture Winterfell and the North, which is obviously doable but even then, if Tommen is found she will have no rightful claim to the throne.

Sansa may yet become a player but she has no assets to play on the level that some people seem to expect.

Yes, she has a very, very long way to go. She also has no claim to the Vale whatsoever, but claim is irrelevant in the end.

In what way is Baelish a psychopath? He has never displayed any joy when killing, nor has he ever given any indication of sadism, his reasons for killing people have always been perfectly logical. You can call him a monster if you'd like but if he is a monster, he is an amoral one.

How? In what way? the last we saw of both these characters, Baelish was telling divulging his grand plan to win her back the North, there is no indication at all that she has grown beyond his ability to control.

The amount of evidence to contradict this statement is actually staggering. Yes, he is certainly using her for his own gains, all characters use each other just like in real life but he obviously cares about her. He is taking obvious pains to teach Sansa the game. Everyone recognizes this yet somehow seem to believe that it will lead to Sansa turning on him, without any reason why she would.

Whatever Baelish has planned for Sansa, it obviously includes her being able to navigate court intrigue and understand the way Baelish himself plays the game.

The effort he is putting into this makes no sense if he simply wishes to off her once she becomes inconvenient. Moreover, Baelish has only caused three deaths in the series, that we know of, and all of them were more the other person's fault then Baelish.

Jon Arryn got offed when he was about to start a war with the Lannisters which they might well have lost, Baelish likely did not want to be so firmly attached to a ship likely to sink, he prefers his breathing room. Also, Jon Arryn was never his ally, Lyssa Arryn was.

The Drunk Knight whose name I cannot be bothered to remember was simply a lowly pawn and a loose end that needed tieing.

Lyssa Arryn was a jealous psycho who was an obvious liability.

He has given almost everyone he has ever betrayed the chance to save themselves with reason and only kills them when their existence becomes a net negative.

I remain convinced that he's a psychopath, but it's a little more complicated. I wasn't stating that Littlefinger didn't care about her, I was intending to communicate that she is still his pawn, and that he will sacrifice her if something were go wrong. Just like he did to everyone else who trusted him. And that's unfortunate. Ned was becoming stupid, goodbye. Jon Arryn was becoming a problem, goodbye. Ser Dontos wasn't really that helpful, goodbye. Lysa was getting hysterical, goodbye. He is cautious, and Sansa knows more than enough to eliminate him from the game entirely. I don't think anyone here would put it past him, but it's kind of likely. Unless he actually isn't the all powerful mastermind.

He cares about himself above everything else. All his actions are for his benefit, regardless if they may benefit others in other forms. As long as it keeps him above his opponents, he'll do it. I personally don't think LF is dumb enough to fall for this, but I could be wrong.

Yeah, I was always kind of suspicious of LF's plans here. Not sure if he was giving the full story.

I don't think he was either. They seem to catered towards Sansa to be real. I don't buy it at all.

[Another Locust]

I'm not sure that is true, though sometimes the books and show do intermix, but didn't LF draw the knife on him in full view of a room full of people including members of the KG who are still alive? Wouldn't the Hound probably know of this also?

I'm sure they did, but they don't have any real reason to object. Except for the Hound, but he's either dead or in a monastery where members are forbidden to speak. I don't think he'll be revealing anything anytime soon. We'll just have another 20 years for TWoW.

[Mourneblade]

I largely agree, though I do not think that Baelish is above murdering Sansa if he absolutely has to, I think she would have to really fuck him over before he would be willing to kill her.

That said, the only people still alive who could tell her about Baelish' betrayal og Ned are Cersei, who she would have no reason to believe, and Petyr himself, so it is very unlikely that she will ever find out about that.

The Hound knows and so does Varys. Would anyone think of a reason Varys would ever tell Sansa about Littlefinger?

Imagine Sansa and Varys having a chat and each offering a secret...

I'm not sure that is true, though sometimes the books and show do intermix, but didn't LF draw the knife on him in full view of a room full of people including members of the KG who are still alive? Wouldn't the Hound probably know of this also?

Yes

[Hypnomagica]

I'm not sure that is true, though sometimes the books and show do intermix, but didn't LF draw the knife on him in full view of a room full of people including members of the KG who are still alive? Wouldn't the Hound probably know of this also?

This is a fair point but none of them knew that Baelish actually betrayed Lord Eddard. To the casual onlooker, it would appear as though the Master of Coins was following a duty to his king and subduing a rebel. None of them had any reason to believe that Baelish had tricked him.

Since Cat knew

.

No, she did not.

[Mourneblade]

.

No, she did not.

TV and Books cross referencing for noobs like me....

You are correct lol

[Cas Stark]

This is a fair point but none of them knew that Baelish actually betrayed Lord Eddard. To the casual onlooker, it would appear as though the Master of Coins was following a duty to his king and subduing a rebel. None of them had any reason to believe that Baelish had tricked him.

.

No, she did not.

Sansa I don't think will see a difference. She has been quite slow on the uptake so far, but eventually she is going to figure out that Littlefinger is not her friend--which he most assuredly is not--and the knowledge and insider information that he is so stupidly giving her will come back to bite him. One would hope that it might even dawn on her that LF could have gotten her out of KL much earlier if was really her friend, it might even dawn on her, if and when she actually absorbs this strategic thinking the link between her telling Dontos about Willis and Dontos being sent to her Littlefinger and the marriage plans falling through.

But, okay, I'm convinced she's never going to be commanding on any level the Vale armies, either as titular head or as warrior princess. There doesn't seem to be a way to make it work, she could certainly manipulate Harry as her husband to do what she wants, but that isn't quite the OPs premise.

[Mourneblade]

Sansa I don't think will see a difference. She has been quite slow on the uptake so far, but eventually she is going to figure out that Littlefinger is not her friend--which he most assuredly is not--and the knowledge and insider information that he is so stupidly giving her will come back to bite him. One would hope that it might even dawn on her that LF could have gotten her out of KL much earlier if was really her friend, it might even dawn on her, if and when she actually absorbs this strategic thinking the link between her telling Dontos about Willis and Dontos being sent to her Littlefinger and the marriage plans falling through.

But, okay, I'm convinced she's never going to be commanding on any level the Vale armies, either as titular head or as warrior princess. There doesn't seem to be a way to make it work, she could certainly manipulate Harry as her husband to do what she wants, but that isn't quite the OPs premise.

She can become Lady Protector, here is how Marries LF, becomes good at manipulation, kills LF because Varys tells her a secret, manipulates Robin to declare her Lady Protector. With blood relation to Robin and the fact that child lords demands typically still are followed...

It might be a stretch but it is possible especially if Sansa can manipulate the banners