Tyrion hatred

[Brightstar_]

So, while it is important to view and understand the character's thoughts, beliefs and actions within the context of their own culture and training, I believe that it is unreasonable to expect a reading audience to disregard their own moral views in the process. It's quite possible to both understand their (the characters') outlook and simultaneously condemn/praise that outlook based on our own outlooks.

These books don't exist in a vacuum and it would be hard for me to believe that an author doesn't understand and incorporate that process into his writing, even if subconsciously. After all, he has his own modern-day cultural sensibility as well.

It's "both/and", not "either/or". I think both of the quotes above are reasonable views (except that I don't believe it's a "mistake").

You should view their actions and be able to judge for yourself whether they are right or wrong based on your own society's moral rules and standards.... but you should not judge them based on that outcome. There is a pretty big difference.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Part of what I think is interesting about the way Jaime thinks on these things is that he doesn't really try to exonerate himself based on the current norms of "goodness" or honor, but gets angry at the norms themselves, if that makes sense?

Agree to all above. More to say but I don't want to hijack the thread. Good posts.

[butterbumps!]

by the way, there's something fabulous about how Jaime has been raked across the coals for the last few pages for not subscribing to enlightened views of morality and justice with regard to hanging vets, and is now being ripped apart for not taking responsibility for causing a war over some extremely unenlightened succession issues.

So, from what I gather, we should judge Jaime's execution of justice with the expectation of his having super enlightened views against the general Westerosi norm, while simultaneously condoning a war to uphold patrilineal succession (and all the non-enlightened nonsense it entails, such as curtailing of reproductive rights, not to mention, what an unjust, ridiculous system this is), necessitating that Jaime should be condemned for upholding his reproductive rights.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

So, while it is important to view and understand the character's thoughts, beliefs and actions within the context of their own culture and training, I believe that it is unreasonable to expect a reading audience to disregard their own moral views in the process. It's quite possible to both understand their (the characters') outlook and simultaneously condemn/praise that outlook based on our own outlooks.

I agree, but I differentiate between judging an act in and of itself, and judging the characters.

My modern sensibilities tell me that feudalism is immoral. But I don't believe that Ned Stark is an evil dictator because he refuses to give up his power and institute democracy in the north.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

You should view their actions and be able to judge for yourself whether they are right or wrong based on your own society's moral rules and standards.... but you should not judge them based on that outcome. There is a pretty big difference.

Okay, I'm confused. I should judge them based on my (I never said nor meant my society's) beliefs, but then... I should NOT judge them based on that? I don't see what you're getting at.

Person 1: "I hate so-and-so because they did something unacceptable in modern-day standards."

Person 2: "You need to understand that they're operating in a different culture."

Person 1: "Yeah, I understand that. I still hate it."

To me, that's reasonable.

[Brightstar_]

Okay, I'm confused. I should judge them based on my (I never said nor meant my society's) beliefs, but then... I should NOT judge them based on that? I don't see what you're getting at.

Person 1: "I hate so-and-so because they did something unacceptable in modern-day standards."

Person 2: "You need to understand that they're operating in a different culture."

Person 1: "Yeah, I understand that. I still hate it."

To me, that's reasonable.

Might have been poorly written out. I meant that you should form an opinion for yourself on their actions, knowing that it would be wrong to do such things in the current world, but then also look at it in the context of their world. You cannot judge them on how their actions look in this world or by our standards is kinda what I'm getting at. So you might hate them for what they did because by your standards it's wrong, but you should also understand that perhaps that really doesn't apply in their world. God I'm having difficulty putting this into words. Sorry if it's still not clear.

[Dany Girl]

Yes i can i clearly do i judge all characters to modern us standarss

Except Cersei

[Dany Girl]

well gosh do you have to keep doing that cersei is special for me are you happy now???!!!

Yee. As long as you admit it's blind bias I'm happy

[Arrax]

God I'm having difficulty putting this into words. Sorry if it's still not clear.

Just direct people to Wiki page on Moral Relativism. :)

[Dany Girl]

Its not fair. Im going to sleep now people. Im probably going to cry too now ;_;

Awe, it's ok to have blind biases, as long as you admit the truth about them :grouphug:

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Might have been poorly written out. I meant that you should form an opinion for yourself on their actions, knowing that it would be wrong to do such things in the current world, but then also look at it in the context of their world. You cannot judge them on how their actions look in this world or by our standards is kinda what I'm getting at. So you might hate them for what they did because by your standards it's wrong, but you should also understand that perhaps that really doesn't apply in their world. God I'm having difficulty putting this into words. Sorry if it's still not clear.

Oh, yeah - that's clear. With one teeny tiny objection.

You cannot judge them on how their actions look in this world...

Actually, I can. If I choose to, I can. It's no skin off my nose if you disagree, but I get a bit bristly when someone says I cannot do something.

It's no big, though! :D

[Brightstar_]

Oh, yeah - that's clear. With one teeny tiny objection.

Actually, I can. If I choose to, I can. It's no skin off my nose if you disagree, but I get a bit bristly when someone says I cannot do something.

It's no big, though! :D

:) Well I just meant that it's not fair to the characters if you judge them in that way. Of course you CAN do it. ^^

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Just direct people to Wiki page on Moral Relativism. :)

I think it goes beyond simple moral relativism :) I think it is more akin to cultural moral relativism.

It goes back to the idea that I believe that feudalism truly is immoral. And I believe that is an absolute. It is immoral no matter if it is today, 1000 years ago, or in a fantasy book. But I don't judge characters like Ned, or Robert, or any of them, as immoral, because they participate in feudalism.

Maybe that's inconsistent. I'm not sure.

[Mourneblade]

Oh, yeah - that's clear. With one teeny tiny objection.

Actually, I can. If I choose to, I can. It's no skin off my nose if you disagree, but I get a bit bristly when someone says I cannot do something.

It's no big, though! :D

I guess he should say, "should not" judge their moral character using modern cultural standards. They were written in a make believe world with make believe rules.

To properly enjoy these characters and this story it is suggested that you suspend your reality as you dive into theirs. Upon deconstruction you realise that the rules that govern their lives are pretty horrible, and only those with power are the law, and their whims are enforced through threat of violence, war, or death.

Would not want to be a peasant here lol

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I guess he should say, "should not" judge their moral character using modern cultural standards. They were written in a make believe world with make believe rules.To properly enjoy these characters and this story it is suggested that you suspend your reality as you dive into theirs. Upon deconstruction you realise that the rules that govern their lives are pretty horrible, and only those with power are the law, and their whims are enforced through threat of violence, war, or death.Would not want to be a peasant here lol

This, is the correct answer.

[Brightstar_]

I guess he should say, "should not" judge their moral character using modern cultural standards. They were written in a make believe world with make believe rules.

To properly enjoy these characters and this story it is suggested that you suspend your reality as you dive into theirs. Upon deconstruction you realise that the rules that govern their lives are pretty horrible, and only those with power are the law, and their whims are enforced through threat of violence, war, or death.

Would not want to be a peasant here lol

You, Ser, win the part of this thread that was discussing the morality of Jaime and Tyrion's actions and their respective attitudes towards them.

[capo51]

About the hill tribesmen of the Vale and how we're saying he allied with them just because he was angry at Lysa... well no. He did that to stay alive. How else could he have convinced them not to kill him? And anyways, I'd be quite mad at Lysa too, in his shoes. Wouldn't you be too, given her twisted idea of a "trial."

Bringing the barbarians with him to KL is another matter entirely. Remind me what ends up happening to all of them? It's been too long since my last re-read.

[Dany Girl]

About the hill tribesmen of the Vale and how we're saying he allied with them just because he was angry at Lysa... well no. He did that to stay alive. How else could he have convinced them not to kill him? And anyways, I'd be quite mad at Lysa too, in his shoes. Wouldn't you be too, given her twisted idea of a "trial."

Bringing the barbarians with him to KL is another matter entirely. Remind me what ends up happening to all of them? It's been too long since my last re-read.

He gave them excellent quality weapons and sent them back to the Veil where they're terrorizing innocent smallfolk, murder, rape, the whole 9 yards.

And some are still hanging in the Kingswoods, where I'm sure they'll cause all sorts of havoc in upcoming books.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I think it's worth noting that there would be no animosity between Tyrion and the Vale in the first place if Lysa Arryn hadn't knowingly tried to convict him of crimes that he was innocent of. He was basically run outta the Eryie and straight into the hill tribesman, he did what he had to in order to survive.

Her actions helped arm the hill tribesman too.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I guess he should say, "should not" judge their moral character using modern cultural standards. They were written in a make believe world with make believe rules.

To properly enjoy these characters and this story it is suggested that you suspend your reality as you dive into theirs. Upon deconstruction you realise that the rules that govern their lives are pretty horrible, and only those with power are the law, and their whims are enforced through threat of violence, war, or death.

Would not want to be a peasant here lol

Indeed. But the whole point is that deconstruction process. Keep that in mind.