Brienne the Absurd

[Maester Pangloss]

Interesting comparison...

One male activity Atalanta definitely participated in was the Calydonian Boar Hunt. Other male members of the hunt objected to her presence, but consumed with lust, Meleager insisted that Atalanta be allowed to join. During the hunt, centaurs Hylaeus and Rhaecus tried to rape Atalanta. Atalanta killed both of them, thus the first bloodshed of the Calydonian Boar Hunt was human.

If this myth was inspiration for GRRM, it's possible this centaur 'Hylaeus' was inspiration for Hyle Hunt. This might not bode well for him...

[Mithras]

If this myth was inspiration for GRRM, it's possible this centaur 'Hylaeus' was inspiration for Hyle Hunt. This might not bode well for him...

Nice catch.

[ravenegg]

Why did this thread die out? Nice reasoning, was there ever a part 2 and 3? Also, has there been a Brienne re-read project? Her chapters aren't exactly my favourites, but her character is lovely. It's very nice to read something appreciative about her. I also like the idea of "parallellism" between her and Jamie; initially she despises him for being an "oathbreaker", possibly - quite likely, even - she'll end up becoming an "oathbreaker" herself, for his sake.

[ChillyPolly]

Why did this thread die out?

Maybe because meaninglessness is not a starting premise conducive to meaningful discussion.

[ravenegg]

The Myth of Sisyphus is not meaningless. It's about creating meaning in a meaningless existence. Brienne's story can serve as an illustration of God's death (all her ideals must fall) and the struggle which comes after. But if you're determined to think this stupid and unnecessary, then nothing here will make any sense to you. So why bother?

[ChillyPolly]

The Myth of Sisyphus is not meaningless. It's about creating meaning in a meaningless existence.

If you presuppose a meaningless existence, then "creating" meaning is by definition impossible.

Or perhaps it amounts to megolomania and self-deification: IN THE BEGINNING, THERE WAS NO MEANING, BUT THEN I, THE MIGHTY RAVENEGG, SAID "LET THERE BE MEANING", AND THERE WAS MEANING!

Of course, I can say (without resorting to solipsism and self deification) that the myth of Sisyphus is about something (such as: crime and punishment in pagan mythology), because (unlike you) I don't presuppose meaninglessness.

Brienne's story can serve as an illustration of God's death (all her ideals must fall) and the struggle which comes after.

Once all her ideals fall, the outcome of her struggle does not matter. At least not to her.

But if you're determined to think this stupid and unnecessary, then nothing here will make any sense to you. So why bother?

Nihilism, by definition, can never make sense.

Of course, if you are opposed to nihilism, like myself, there is certainly can be a point to mocking and deriding the most evil, dead-end, destructive philosophy ever invented. There's just no point in defending it. So you tell me. Why bother?

[ravenegg]

I don't understand your aggression against this topic. And I will not bother.

[Lord Martin]

Why did this thread die out? Nice reasoning, was there ever a part 2 and 3? Also, has there been a Brienne re-read project? Her chapters aren't exactly my favourites, but her character is lovely. It's very nice to read something appreciative about her. I also like the idea of "parallellism" between her and Jamie; initially she despises him for being an "oathbreaker", possibly - quite likely, even - she'll end up becoming an "oathbreaker" herself, for his sake.

You'll be happy to know that I am working on part 2 as we speak! Hopefully I'll have something up shortly... stay tuned!

[ravenegg]

Looking forward to it :)

[Hrafntýr]

You'll be happy to know that I am working on part 2 as we speak! Hopefully I'll have something up shortly... stay tuned!

That's great news! Thank you!

[Mal Malenkirk]

Good news.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

If you presuppose a meaningless existence, then "creating" meaning is by definition impossible.

Or perhaps it amounts to megolomania and self-deification: IN THE BEGINNING, THERE WAS NO MEANING, BUT THEN I, THE MIGHTY RAVENEGG, SAID "LET THERE BE MEANING", AND THERE WAS MEANING!

Of course, I can say (without resorting to solipsism and self deification) that the myth of Sisyphus is about something (such as: crime and punishment in pagan mythology), because (unlike you) I don't presuppose meaninglessness.

Once all her ideals fall, the outcome of her struggle does not matter. At least not to her.

Nihilism, by definition, can never make sense.

Of course, if you are opposed to nihilism, like myself, there is certainly can be a point to mocking and deriding the most evil, dead-end, destructive philosophy ever invented. There's just no point in defending it. So you tell me. Why bother?

Camus who wrote the myth of sysiphus was not a nihilist. Like other existentialists, he does start the thought experiment from the position that we can't be sure there's meaning in existence - that it appears that we may be living in a world where we toil for no higher purpose (like sysiphus).

It seems that Camus (who was an athiest, again not a nihilist) mostly concluded that meaning and satisfaction in life can be garnered through pursuit of humanistic goals, or at least by doing good work that we find satisfying. Living life itself to the utmost. OTOH Kierkegaard believed only religious pursuits really gave meaning to life. Neither would ever argue life is meaningless.

[Tannim]

Thank you for posting this, as the exploration of each characters psychology and motivations is one of the fun aspects in the series. Looking forward to part 2, as my knowledge of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead is far greater than on the in depth philosophy of Absurdism. :dunce:

[ravenegg]

I think that Brienne and Jaime will end up together. I only think so after reading the Wheel of Time. They are similar to another couple within those books Breane and Lamgwin. I know people may say I'm crazy but too many things are lining up just to ignore them out of hand.

http://howthegameofthronesends.blogspot.com/2015/02/whats-going-on-with-brienne-ad-jaime.html

I will be very disappointed if they don't ever come together, but I have a hard time believing Jamie will survive to see the end. But imagining the two together - at least once - yeah, I can see that. In fact, I really hope so.

[ChillyPolly]

Camus who wrote the myth of sysiphus was not a nihilist.

I was not to Camus directly, but merely to the ideas attributed to him as summarized by the OP. And as summarized by the OP, his ideas were indeed nihilistic. And THAT was what I was commenting on as not conducive to meaningful discussuion.

[Lord Martin]

So I finally have posted an update. It was so long it needed two posts and I exceeded my quotation limits:

Anyway, Part 1 of Jaime pre-bath is here. (post #2

And Part 2 is here. (post #4)

Don't be intimidated by the length, they are mostly quotes. Looking forward to hearing from everyone!

I plan on posting a lot more but will just put it in the thread where I can.

[alayne-stoneheart]

I don't know if I have anything to add about Jaime but I just want to say that I'm really impressed with your analysis, Lord Martin! Can't wait to see more!

:bowdown:

If you presuppose a meaningless existence, then "creating" meaning is by definition impossible.

Or perhaps it amounts to megolomania and self-deification: IN THE BEGINNING, THERE WAS NO MEANING, BUT THEN I, THE MIGHTY RAVENEGG, SAID "LET THERE BE MEANING", AND THERE WAS MEANING!

Of course, I can say (without resorting to solipsism and self deification) that the myth of Sisyphus is about something (such as: crime and punishment in pagan mythology), because (unlike you) I don't presuppose meaninglessness.


Once all her ideals fall, the outcome of her struggle does not matter. At least not to her.


Nihilism, by definition, can never make sense.

Of course, if you are opposed to nihilism, like myself, there is certainly can be a point to mocking and deriding the most evil, dead-end, destructive philosophy ever invented. There's just no point in defending it. So you tell me. Why bother?

I don't think I would really ever call Brienne a nihilist, since she obviously does believe in the existence of good vs evil etc. Obviously any philosophy has a spectrum, though. I think Brienne simply doesn't believe that her choices matter in any grand scope ("The gods don’t care about men, no more than kings care about peasants.” –AFFC). The outcome of her struggle does matter too her, though, because her ideals of honor and chivalry matter to her very deeply. She keeps to her knightly ideals, not because she is an actual knight who is sworn to them, not because of religion, but simply because she is a good person, and she wants to do what's right because its right.

I don't think George RR Martin is a nihilist and I don't think that's the point of his novels or of any character's story in those novels. I think the point of absurdist philosophy isn't necessarily that there is no meaning in life, but only that humans can never know for sure what the meaning is. And honestly, making the choice to do the right thing even if you aren't sure the world can ever give you a logical reason why imo is a far more noble thing than doing whats right because you want to go to heaven.

When Sysiphus pushes the rock up the hill, he doesn't necessarily believe that this time will be different and he'll reach the top, just as no one believes that any of their actions in the present are going to really end suffering or solve all the world's problems, but what else are we going to do?

I love this quote from the tv series Angel: "If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it." "And now you do?" "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world." Most people are reasonable enough to know, if they really let themselves think about it, that we can't really ever win, not completely, not for good. That doesn't mean we should stop fighting.

[Lord Martin]

I don't know if I have anything to add about Jaime but I just want to say that I'm really impressed with your analysis, Lord Martin! Can't wait to see more!

:bowdown:

I don't think I would really ever call Brienne a nihilist, since she obviously does believe in the existence of good vs evil etc. Obviously any philosophy has a spectrum, though. I think Brienne simply doesn't believe that her choices matter in any grand scope ("The gods don’t care about men, no more than kings care about peasants.” –AFFC). The outcome of her struggle does matter too her, though, because her ideals of honor and chivalry matter to her very deeply. She keeps to her knightly ideals, not because she is an actual knight who is sworn to them, not because of religion, but simply because she is a good person, and she wants to do what's right because its right.

I don't think George RR Martin is a nihilist and I don't think that's the point of his novels or of any character's story in those novels. I think the point of absurdist philosophy isn't necessarily that there is no meaning in life, but only that humans can never know for sure what the meaning is. And honestly, making the choice to do the right thing even if you aren't sure the world can ever give you a logical reason why imo is a far more noble thing than doing whats right because you want to go to heaven.

When Sysiphus pushes the rock up the hill, he doesn't necessarily believe that this time will be different and he'll reach the top, just as no one believes that any of their actions in the present are going to really end suffering or solve all the world's problems, but what else are we going to do?

I love this quote from the tv series Angel: "If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it." "And now you do?" "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world." Most people are reasonable enough to know, if they really let themselves think about it, that we can't really ever win, not completely, not for good. That doesn't mean we should stop fighting.

Hey thanks! There are no wrong takes on Jaime Lannister (well I'm sure there are..) But he's a complex and complicated character.

As for Brienne... I think my initial analysis might need some revising and someday I'll get back to it. But I certainly don't think Brienne is a nihilist. I think her greatest strength is her dogged determination to do the right thing. . . but she starts off as sort of naive, or perhaps overly optimistic about the nature of mankind and her ability to shape it. I think you've captured it well.

She has her own existential crises during her journey but lets face it, she has had a stranger journey than most. She is a female who wants to be a knight which makes her unique to the point of absurdity herself. She witnessed the supernatural death of her King only to get caught up with Catelyn Stark. She is tasked to return the Kingslayer to KL, an absurd decision by Catelyn with even more absurd results as she is chased by Robbs men. Then when she is captured by one, he's turned cloak and sends Jaime on his way while leaving her to the mummers.

And thats not even half of it. We still have her battle with the bear, imprisonment, release, getting Oathkeeper, her search for Sansa Stark, her battles with the bloody mummers all to bring her right back into contact with undead Catelyn Stark. The loops and cycles of her arc are dizzying and are enough to make someone want to give up.

So for me, the transformation Brienne has to make is that she needs to accept the absurdity in life and discovery who she really is and what she stands for. But more than that, she needs to learn the importance of what role an individual can play in the lives of Others and how to play it in a world so full of villainy.

[Mal Malenkirk]

That's a lot to digest! I'll get it to it when I have the time.

So for me, the transformation Brienne has to make is that she needs to accept the absurdity in life and discovery who she really is and what she stands for. But more than that, she needs to learn the importance of what role an individual can play in the lives of Others and how to play it in a world so full of villainy.

That's well spoken.

[ravenegg]

Thanks for parts 2 and 3, I've come to really like Brienne and Jamie (if someone had told me after GoT that Jamie eventually would become one of my favourite characters/POVs, I would've thought they had taken drugs! But here I am...) and enjoy this closer reading. The bath scene in Harrenhal, with Jamie's "confession" has never struck me on that symbolic level before - with ritual bath/cleansing and confession - but it's quite obvious. Wish I had something to add, but I don't. Have you looked at Jamie's dream, when he dreams he is under Casterly Rock, and Cersei is there, and Brienne is there... can't remember it very well. Another heavily symbol-laden Jamie moment.