El Guapo Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I disagree with the idea that the Sons of the Harpy are a grassroots movement. They strike me more as Astro-turf, meaning organized by the rich and formerly powerful of the city, but designed to look like a popular uprising. I think its clear that the Green Grace is the Harpy, but im sure she speaks for all of Meereen's wealthy families, and the attacks serve only their interest, not the common people. When people who have nothing rise up, the violence is always accompanied by looting, and to my memory there is none of that going on. The attacks are solely designed to weaken Dany's hold on the city. Agreed. The very fact that Hizdair was able to stop the killings tells me that the insurgency was organized and controlled by the elites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mountain That Rhymes Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 And why is Maegor the Cruel considered a failure? (The hint is in the "cruel" part.) Because he died (relatively) young. A tragedy for us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Agreed. The very fact that Hizdair was able to stop the killings tells me that the insurgency was organized and controlled by the elites.Just because the elites (more like the Green Grace) were calling the shots doesn't mean they were the only ones involved. I'll pose the question again. If the general population is so pro-Dany and the nobles are the only party involved, why is Dany constantly getting stonewalled? Why is no one turning the elites in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Just because the elites (more like the Green Grace) were calling the shots doesn't mean they were the only ones involved.I'll pose the question again. If the general population is so pro-Dany and the nobles are the only party involved, why is Dany constantly getting stonewalled? Why is no one turning the elites in? Fear of getting killed by the elites? They have been running the city for awhile now controlling a large slave population so I am guessing they know how to keep people in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Fear of getting killed by the elites? They have been running the city for awhile now controlling a large slave population so I am guessing they know how to keep people in line.So is Dany in charge of the city, or isn't she?Either the general population is actually in league with the Harpy, or the general population has no faith in Dany to keep them safe from reprisal. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightstar_ Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 So is Dany's goal to be a good queen, or is it to consolidate power through violent subjugation and mass murder? Because I answered the OP with the apparently misguided idea that Dany's goal was to leave Meereen in better shape than how she found it. I seem to think that Dany's initial goal WAS to rule Meereen and make it a stable city without slavery, how again is this misleaded? I'm not saying it's an achievable goal, I merely asked how you would go about trying to achieve this, and especially how you would deal with the SOTH. Also I mentioned that simply leaving Meereen was not an option, not because it isn't one for Dany, but because replies stating " I'd just leave" would be kind of pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I seem to think that Dany's initial goal WAS to rule Meereen and make it a stable city without slavery, how again is this misleaded? I'm not saying it's an achievable goal, I merely asked how you would go about trying to achieve this, and especially how you would deal with the SOTH. Also I mentioned that simply leaving Meereen was not an option, not because it isn't one for Dany, but because replies stating " I'd just leave" would be kind of pointless. I should have used the Comic Sans sarcasm font, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightstar_ Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 So is Dany in charge of the city, or isn't she?Either the general population is actually in league with the Harpy, or the general population has no faith in Dany to keep them safe from reprisal. Which is it?Could be a combination of both. Dany may be in control, but once the elites find out who betrayed them, they could still take revenge. Same thing happens in real life with people not wanting to play snitch on criminals. These criminals don't actually run the city, but they still have influence and could exact revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I still think that if the Harpy didn't have some sizable grass-roots support, someone, maybe a lot of someones, would have narced on them by now. That Dany gets stonewalled during every attempt she makes to investigate indicates that there's some layer of populist protection there. The nobles also have only a fraction of the power they once did. If the general population actually saw the Harpy as a negative, they would be in a position to do something about it, either by turning them in to Dany or confronting them by force. Yet, nothing.We dont know what the incentive is for the common people not giving up information (assuming any of them have information to give up). Is it that they agree with the general sentiment and are participating in it, or are the being compensated for their silence? Its also possible the Sons of the Harpy have maintained a closed loop, where no one who isnt directly involved has any useful information. We also dont know the quality of the information that Dany and therefore the reader is getting. Its possible that one or more of the Ghiscari advisors in her council has answers for her but is withholding that info for whatever reason. For instance, the Shavepate seems much more concerned with bringing down Hizdar than anything else. If he had gained info that was exculpatory for Hizdar, it would not surprise me that he would hold that back at least until his plan was complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 So is Dany in charge of the city, or isn't she?Either the general population is actually in league with the Harpy, or the general population has no faith in Dany to keep them safe from reprisal. Which is it? Dany is in control of the city but she can't control every single person and every single faction in the city the size of Mereen without turning it into a complete police state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightstar_ Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 I should have used the Comic Sans sarcasm font, I guess. Lol sorry, totally missed the sarcasm in that. Perhaps it's because some people actually seemed to have missed the point of my OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Agreed. The very fact that Hizdair was able to stop the killings tells me that the insurgency was organized and controlled by the elites.Excellent point, why would a popular movement listen to one elite telling them to stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djinn Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Propaganda. I would wage a ''war on terror'' while rewarding those that support me. The only way to deal with subversive movements efficiently is to cripple their popular support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelcan Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Propaganda. I would wage a ''war on terror'' while rewarding those that support me. The only way to deal with subversive movements efficiently is to cripple their popular support. And what should she base this campaign on? how much better life is now that she is in charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Gah! I might think Dany's mishandled the situation, but I'd far rather her way than the "Maegor the Cruel" route so many peeps in here are advocating. Dany didn't know best, but she knew better than that. Agreed. She wasn't as firm as she needed to be (mostly a side effect of blowing her advantages with the hostages), but I have to give her some credit for making some attempt. This "burn it all down" attitude accomplishes nothing and frankly I'm glad the people advocating it aren't in any position of authority. Troubling indeed. All the talk about how monstrous and evil the Slavers are, and this is what some of you would do differently if you were in charge? :leaving: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightstar_ Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Troubling indeed. All the talk about how monstrous and evil the Slavers are, and this is what some of you would do differently if you were in charge? :leaving: Well I guess ( and hope) that they only meant to be brutal untill the rebellion and slaughter of their men was over and they were in full control of the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Excellent point, why would a popular movement listen to one elite telling them to stop?What exactly makes you think that Hizdahr is the one calling the shots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Dany is in control of the city but she can't control every single person and every single faction in the city the size of Mereen without turning it into a complete police state.Literally all it would take is a handful of people willing to give her actionable intelligence, and she can't even get that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 What exactly makes you think that Hizdahr is the one calling the shots?I don't think he is, I think the Green Grace is the one calling the shots. However he clearly has an outsized influence there that I think precludes a decentralized, bottom up, grassroots movement. I say the Green Grace is the real power there because she was the real power broker that brought Dany and Hizdahr together. Also any time Dany has decisions to make, she's there, subtly trying to nudge Dany in the direction she wants. She's like Varys in a tokar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I don't think he is, I think the Green Grace is the one calling the shots. However he clearly has an outsized influence there that I think precludes a decentralized, bottom up, grassroots movement. I say the Green Grace is the real power there because she was the real power broker that brought Dany and Hizdahr together. Also any time Dany has decisions to make, she's there, subtly trying to nudge Dany in the direction she wants. She's like Varys in a tokar.What influence is he shown to have, exactly? Yes, the killing stopped when she married him, but that doesn't mean it was his call to make . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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