How would you handle the Sons of the Harpy-situation?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Make threats that I actually follow through with.

+9000 :agree:

If you refuse to kill children, that's fine. It's a principled position that may even earn you some respect and admiration from some quarters (though her enemies will not thank her for it in this case)

But if you choose to take children as hostages, you better be prepared to kill them. Otherwise you just look like a weakling

[Ramsay Gimp]

I personally liked Daario's idea of hosting a "Red Wedding" and taking out all the highest nobles in one fell swoop

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-ii-the-peace-was-real/

Dany did achieve peace in Meereen. Her approach was successful, only she didn´t like it. Peace fell only when Barristan did the coup.

Either you are prepared to build a society that includes everyone (including former elites, and near elites), or you should just go ahead and wipe them out/expel them when the city was conquered

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

+9000 :agree:

If you refuse to kill children, that's fine. It's a principled position that may even earn you some respect and admiration from some quarters (though her enemies will not thank her for it in this case)

But if you choose to take children as hostages, you better be prepared to kill them. Otherwise you just look like a weakling

Well that and you shouldn't ever say, "Oh I'd never kill the hostages." You can always take them and hope they don't call your bluff, but there's no reason to fuck yourself anymore than is necessary.

[Trigger Warning]

There's decent reason to believe that it's not just the ruling class. For example, you might also look at any members of the middle class whose economic prospects have been challenged by the freed slaves. I also doubt that the nobles are the ones putting themselves in harm's way in the dead of night. I think it's likelier that there's a large element of populist scapegoating going on.

Think of it this way: No one has turned any of these people in. If it really were just a tiny core of nobles causing all the trouble, and the rest of the city was entirely pro-Dany, wouldn't someone have ratted them out by now? The fact that no one is willing to give them up, even under torture, suggests that the Harpy's cause is more prevalent than you might think.

I concur, but there in lies the question how can you achieve peace when their only goal would seem to be removing Dany from power? What concessions without compromising everything she believes in. The brutal destruction of some of the leading houses, likely houses that the harpies have rallied around could shatter the morale of the movement or cause enough fear for them to relent. If the middle class are carrying out the orders of the upper nobles then the loss of that trickle down command could send them into disarray, other leading houses may retract support for the movement through fear etc or alternatively as you say it may strengthen their resolve.

However I just don't really see any economic or political concessions that Dany can make without reintroducing slavery proper that would satiate the Sons enough to make them halt the violence.

[Fire and Blood!]

So is Dany's goal to be a good queen, or is it to consolidate power through violent subjugation and mass murder? Because I answered the OP with the apparently misguided idea that Dany's goal was to leave Meereen in better shape than how she found it.

Again, it takes zero skill or ability to destroy something. Building something and enabling positive long-term social progress is how statesmen are made. But if all Dany is capable of being is a tyrant (which is what you seem to suggest), then she's less worthy of being a queen than I thought, which is saying something.

Well her goal shouldn't be Meereen at all, it should be Westeros. Also I thought the question was how I would handle the situation not what Dany should do to be a better queen, so I answer accordingly.

[ghosts in winterfell]

[snip]

ETA: In terms of the big picture, you can achieve more with soft power, consistent jurisprudence and economic opportunity than you can with brutality. It's not worth creating some hard-ass police state if everyone living there hates your guts.

Fantastic, especially the points about consistency in crime & punishment and not making threats that she had no intentions of following through on.

[LordFirkraag]

I believe I'm right in saying that the Butcher King of Astapor first appeared in aSoS and predates the Iraq war?

Bush and Blair so should have consulted GRRM. :laugh:

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I concur, but there in lies the question how can you achieve peace when their only goal would seem to be removing Dany from power? What concessions without compromising everything she believes in. The brutal destruction of some of the leading houses, likely houses that the harpies have rallied around could shatter the morale of the movement or cause enough fear for them to relent. If the middle class are carrying out the orders of the upper nobles then the loss of that trickle down command could send them into disarray, other leading houses may retract support for the movement through fear etc or alternatively as you say it may strengthen their resolve.

However I just don't really see any economic or political concessions that Dany can make without reintroducing slavery proper that would satiate the Sons enough to make them halt the violence.

Hizdahr zo Loraq seemed happy enough with his voluntary gladiator business.

[Trigger Warning]

Hizdahr zo Loraq seemed happy enough with his voluntary gladiator business.

This all hinges on whether Hizdahr attempted to poison Dany or not.

If it was him he would no doubt reintroduce slavery not long after.

[MasterJack]

No, the Sons of the Harpy and the other ruling elites in Mereen want slavery legalized again. That is what they want, that is what was fueling the insurgency.

Comfort and Safety. They want slavery back because this is all they know to make money and live a good life, you know since Dany didnt bring any new ways to makes money. "yeah all free... of fuck now we are all starving, better run to the next city to sack it"

A good reputation(good justice, benevolence etc) will win you the smallfok. While the elite will accept you if you dont empty their pocket. Dany failed with that second group, she propose nothing for them.

1-she kills em

2-Take all their power(gold/house/etc) powerless enemy isnt enemy

3-Force them to respectfear her strenght

4-Give em new buiness oppurtunities

Anyway I think on of the best rule when you take a city is steal all of the wealthy's assets. You make no enemy of the majority of the smallfolk (they cant be enemy if they dont act a whole) and you destroy the powerfull house who could really by dangerous to you by taking their power)

So many choices, yet she chose to sit there doing nothing except marrying the enemy and legalising slavery again.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

This all hinges on whether Hizdahr attempted to poison Dany or not.

If it was him he would no doubt reintroduce slavery not long after.

true. On the other hand i think it has become conventional opinion that the Shavespate was behind the assassination attempt.

Either way, leaving the Old nobility in charge of the "state" powers once she leaves, does sound like a losing strategy. The thing is, that it is really unrealistic for Dany to achieve a long term peace and prosperity by ruling a city a couple of months/few years..

For that she requires much more institution building.. Which of course is not possible in terms of plot development of asoaif

I think GRRM intends to make everything fail in meereen.

[LordFirkraag]

While we're on the subject...Dany's views on slavery are a bit silly considering that the small folk in her home country are basically slaves themselves.

I suppose Martin has an acute sense that making a big moral cause out of slavery was always a rather adolescent thing, as far as the Europeans were concerned. Or rather, utterly bourgeois and out-of-touch with reality. While the Royal Navy was deployed to crack down on the Arab slave trade, there were children in the workhouses of England that were subjected to forced labour. It was just a sentimental thing, a Holy Cause that allowed the upper classes to feel good about themselves. Dany is a teenager so I suppose so she gets an exemption for being sentimental.

[Trigger Warning]

true. On the other hand i think it has become conventional opinion that the Shavespate was behind the assassination attempt.

Either way, leaving the Old nobility in charge of the "state" powers once she leaves, does sound like a losing strategy. The thing is, that it is really unrealistic for Dany to achieve a long term peace and prosperity by ruling a city a couple of months/few years..

For that she requires much more institution building.. Which of course is not possible in terms of plot development of asoaif

I think GRRM intends to make everything fail in meereen.

Either way I still don't think the Sons would remain inactive under Dany's rule indefinitely unless she was killed, somehow excluded from power or allowed slavery to be reintroduced. Also there's the cultural factor, from what we've seen in Slaver's Bay the Ghiscari think much of their imperial heritage and resent Valyria, the idea of a Valyrian ruling a Ghiscari city by itself may be enough to cause unrest.

[Light a wight tonight]

Since Dany won't execute the kiddies she has as hostages she needs to exchange them for adults. Have the Shavepate draw up a list of the heirs of the major houses and take them instead. And then start offing them if the Sons of the Harpy continue to kill Beasts and Unsullied. Execute them publicly and painfully, making sure the heads of the major houses are in attendance.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well her goal shouldn't be Meereen at all, it should be Westeros. Also I thought the question was how I would handle the situation not what Dany should do to be a better queen, so I answer accordingly.

And that would just lead to a really terrible outcome. I at least give Dany credit for wanting to make things better, even if she failed at it. What you're proposing doesn't achieve anything but more violence.

I concur, but there in lies the question how can you achieve peace when their only goal would seem to be removing Dany from power? What concessions without compromising everything she believes in. The brutal destruction of some of the leading houses, likely houses that the harpies have rallied around could shatter the morale of the movement or cause enough fear for them to relent. If the middle class are carrying out the orders of the upper nobles then the loss of that trickle down command could send them into disarray, other leading houses may retract support for the movement through fear etc or alternatively as you say it may strengthen their resolve.

However I just don't really see any economic or political concessions that Dany can make without reintroducing slavery proper that would satiate the Sons enough to make them halt the violence.

If the nobility is waging the shadow war using the general population as accomplices, then she needs to focus on winning over the general population. If I recall, Dayne appealed to the common folk to stop protecting the Kingswood Brotherhood, and that's how they were defeated. Maybe the nobles are a lost cause. But strip them of their protection, their accomplices and their legitimacy, and they become more manageable.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Either way I still don't think the Sons would remain inactive under Dany's rule indefinitely unless she was killed, somehow excluded from power or allowed slavery to be reintroduced. Also there's the cultural factor, from what we've seen in Slaver's Bay the Ghiscari think much of their imperial heritage and resent Valyria, the idea of a Valyrian ruling a Ghiscari city by itself may be enough to cause unrest.

I think they would.. and they did (at least temporary) because dany agreed to a middle ground. Voluntary slavery and the gladiator thing were reestablished (which is i think rational, since the whole economy of meereen was based on slavery and now she has too many mouths to feed).. Creating economic opportunities is not done overnight.

part of her compromise was indeed to bend towards Ghiscari culture, traditions and general heritage. Which she hated by the way..

[illrede]

One thing with no nuance- stop them from using the Pyramids as castles and outposts. It made operations against uppity freedmen very easy to organize and conduct, I think.

[MeadMaster]

Slaughter all of the great houses, seize thier wealth, set up your people in thier place.

[The King of the Night]

1 Win the hearts of the people. She needs to give them the fighting pits immediately. It seems cruel but it is a part of their culture. Also she needs to handle the LABOR CRISIS better.

There is a major issue with all the merchants and craftsman being unable to make money due to freedmen doing the same jobs for cheaper. The solution is to make set rates for all tasks that no freedman can go under and merchant cant go above. this will level the playing field and a well placed tax or benefit would help even more. She spits on the former slave owners and turns the whole city upside down. There is no hope to rule if she cannot keep the people happy.

2 Don't take children as hostages. Take adults of power from the families. Not only will it be easier to fallow through with executions, but it will also be possible to get useful information from them. If after a few rounds of executions havent proven to be enough, then you start torturing the captives before killing them.

3 GET INFORMERS!! She needs people in the other pyramids. Telling her of meetings between higher ups. Someone with low cunning and tactics other than the honor of barristan, the pure brutality of Skahaz and the lickspittle Raznak. Their is no one to do the darker deeds that must be done to hold this together. I know she doesn't have Varys on hand but surely there would be a Sellsword with such skills who could become completely loyal given certain rewards.