Has Varys only given 'true' advice to Aerys?

[JaegrM]

Varys feeds everyone with half truths and deceptions,

However, we're lead to believe that he warned The Mad King about Rhaegar's plots (which we're lead to believe are legit) and he counseled him against admitting Tywin into KL.

I can't think of any other time he was so direct, honest or forthcoming with anyone else.

This is my biggest problem with Aegon being a Blackfyre, why give loyal, honest, prudent advice to a generally hated Targ, and then try to place a member of a generations long rival family on the same throne?

Am I forgetting some interactions he had with others where he offered information of the same caliber?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Varys's whispering about Rhaegar only seems to have furthered Aerys's paranoia and divided the family. I don't see how that helped Aerys at all in the long run.

The Tywin warning is more interesting to wonder about, but even it could be down to Varys worried about saving his own skin when Tywin rolled in.

[JaegrM]

Varys's whispering about Rhaegar only seems to have furthered Aerys's paranoia and divided the family. I don't see how that helped Aerys at all in the long run.

The Tywin warning is more interesting to wonder about, but even it could be down to Varys worried about saving his own skin when Tywin rolled in.

Varys would kind of be neglecting his post if he failed to mention what he knew about Rhaegar.

[Victor227]

Varys doesn't do much in the way of actual lying. It's what truths he delivers, and what truths he withholds that make up his manipulations. His advice to Aerys divided the Targaryens and fueled his descent into madness. His advice to keep Tywin out of the city is soon after met with the revelation that he supposedly had a plan to get Aegon out and replace him with a double.

In service to that scheme, delaying the fall of King's Landing long enough to make the baby-switch plot more believable/possible certainly seems like a primary objective of his.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Varys would kind of be neglecting his post if he failed to mention what he knew about Rhaegar.

You completely missed the point.

What came first: Rhaegar actually conspiring to replace his father, or Varys whispering into Aerys's ear to fuel the paranoia that would lead to Rhaegar conspiring to replace his father?

[Victor227]

You completely missed the point.

What came first: Rhaegar actually conspiring to replace his father, or Varys whispering into Aerys's ear to fuel the paranoia that would lead to Rhaegar conspiring to replace his father?

Both. He could have started with whispers that Rhaegar would make a better king than Aerys, and support being built amongst the nobility toward such an end. That fuels Aerys into acting in such a manner that it triggers Rhaegar believing he -has- to replace him.

Varys seems like a master of prophecy in that regard. Telling people how to act to reach just the end he told them they'd meet.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Both. He could have started with whispers that Rhaegar would make a better king than Aerys, and support being built amongst the nobility toward such an end. That fuels Aerys into acting in such a manner that it triggers Rhaegar believing he -has- to replace him.

Varys seems like a master of prophecy in that regard. Telling people how to act to reach just the end he told them they'd meet.

But you seem to agree with my overall point, that enabling Aerys's paranoia is hardly doing him any actual service.

[Victor227]

But you seem to agree with my overall point, that enabling Aerys's paranoia is hardly doing him any actual service.

Varys never does anyone any actual service. He does the 'day to day' Master of Whispers job, but is always strangely absent whenever anything -does- go down.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Varys never does anyone any actual service. He does the 'day to day' Master of Whispers job, but is always strangely absent whenever anything -does- go down.

Then we're in agreement.

[Victor227]

Then we're in agreement.

Just so. Varys was a toxic influence. He reports the things that people really don't often 'need' to hear, and withholds the things they do. He's a master at making himself look needed by catering to the egos of others, but it's those secrets of his that remain the hidden daggers.

[Wmarshal]

You completely missed the point.

What came first: Rhaegar actually conspiring to replace his father, or Varys whispering into Aerys's ear to fuel the paranoia that would lead to Rhaegar conspiring to replace his father?

We don't know, Rhaegar was a strange character who moved where the plot demanded.

[PrimeRhaegar]

This is why Jon Con needs to put a spear through him.

[JaegrM]

From the Wiki

"As spymaster in King's Landing, Varys's influence grew with Aerys's paranoia, as he was quick to point out traitors and schemers to his liege. Varys mastered the secret passages within the Red Keep and made good use of them with his spy network, who became known as his "little birds". He had them memorize the passages and come to him whenever one discovered something of importance. Notably, Varys alerted Aerys to the possibility that his son Rhaegar was using attendance at the Tourney at Harrenhal as a pretext to rally Lords to his cause in removing Aerys as king, causing Aerys to attend the tournament, the first time he had left the Red Keep in years since the Defiance of Duskendale.

Following the Battle of the Trident during Robert's Rebellion, Varys counseled Aerys to close his gates toTywin Lannister, as he could not be trusted. Aerys, however, listened to Grand Maester Pycelle and opened the gates to the Lannister forces, who proceeded to sack the city and kill the remaining Targaryens present."

We know at Harrenhall Rhaegar crowned Lyanna and blah blah blah, whether or not he met with other nobles or made secret plots, clearly Rhaegar had an agenda of some kind. From what we know of him Rhaegar does not seem like the type to act on a whim, and just happened to decide to crown Lyanna because she looked pretty that day.

As for the idea that during the sack he advised Aerys against allowing Lannister forces into the city to save himself....

Well, that's laughable.

The one man who can disguise himself as an old, young, male, female, whatever who knows all the secret hiding areas and escape routes could easily make himself scarce.

I also am of the impression that since Aerys was unable to sniff out a plot at the tourny is why he chose to listen to pycelle as opposed to Varys.

Varys failed to prove his son a traitor, so before the sack he chose to listen to another advisor.

I have no proof of that being the case, but it feels right.

As you have no proof that says Varys warned Aerys of Rhaegar other than that's your own interpretation, I feel justified in posting that.

The Impression given is that Varys legitimately tried to assist the throne/king, and no one else since then save for perhaps Aegon

[Valyrian Spoon]

Aerys was paranoid therefore he believed that many were out to get him. Varys by whispering plots and hand feeding him traitors and possible schemers was just making his delusions seem real. If you play along with a mad man and make him seem like he is completely reasonable then you are going to rise in his estimations.

As Apple Martini pointed out all he seemingly did was cause mistrust between father and son, and make an unstable man even worse. If he truly thought he was surrounded by would be enemies it's no surprise that he botched the lead up to Roberts Rebellion so badly.

Where was the loyal, honest and prudent advice then?

[JaegrM]

Aerys was paranoid therefore he believed that many were out to get him. Varys by whispering plots and hand feeding him traitors and possible schemers was just making his delusions seem real. If you play along with a mad man and make him seem like he is completely reasonable then you are going to rise in his estimations.

As Apple Martini pointed out all he seemingly did was cause mistrust between father and son, and make an unstable man even worse. If he truly thought he was surrounded by would be enemies it's no surprise that he botched the lead up to Roberts Rebellion so badly.

Where was the loyal, honest and prudent advice then?

I feel that from what we know of Aerys, Varys risked his head by giving him the info regarding Rhaegar's plots.

Look what befell The Starks when they spoke against Rhaegar.

and as I stated earlier, it IS kinda Varys's job to tell the king when he hears such things.

Considering that we are lead to believe that Varys told Aerys the truth regarding this ordeal, and the prudent advice about not letting Tywin into KL.

I just get the overall impression that Varys was Loyal to Aerys, The Targ.

And I have a hard time reconciling that with him wanting to plant a Blackfyre on the Targ Throne.

[Faydra]

This is my biggest problem with Aegon being a Blackfyre, why give loyal, honest, prudent advice to a generally hated Targ, and then try to place a member of a generations long rival family on the same throne?

Honest, yes. Loyal, not so much. Varys apparently knew that telling the truth was the best way to mask his intentions. In order to achieve peace you need to overlook small wrongdoings. Of course you achieve more if you punish each of them, but people who did so, weren't able to keep the throne for too long.

[JaegrM]

I feel this thread has lost itself to a related point (imo) I made in my opening post....

Has Varys been this open and helpful (allegedly to the best of our knowledge) to any other persons?

[Mithras]

No. Whatever he did was all to make sure that there would be a no strong winner. That is why he tried hard to smash Stannis at Blackwater. Oddly, LF was playing the same game too and for a time, they shared the same goals. Now that Lannister-Tyrell alliance seemingly won the war, he moved to tear them apart.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know enough about Aerys' reign to judge what impact Varys had on Aerys' paranoia. The sources telling Aerys started to get really bad after Varys arrived are Jaime and Barristan. Neither of them is subtle enough to judge or even guess at Varys' true motives. Especially since it's Varys' standard routine to play the slimy, effeminate eunuch with guys like Ned, Barristan, young Jaime.

If Aerys got more and more erratic, mistrusting everyone in his inner circle, then Varys very survival may have depended on giving Aerys what he wanted. It's known that only the KG knights were allowed weapons in Aerys' presence, and the servants of the King came to him, not the other way around. So Varys' life depended on keeping Aerys happy if the latter had a tendency to fire/arrest/execute/burn a servant in the middle of an audience. You cannot conclusively predict the actions of a madman.

Jon Connington also seems to hold grudges against Varys, but it seems that those have nothing to do with his actions during Aerys' reign. It seems that Connington feels humiliated and used by Varys, and wants some payback for that. If Connington knew/suspected that Varys wanted to cause trouble between Aerys and Rhaegar he would never have gone along with the Aegon plan. He probably would not have even believed that Aegon was Rhaegar's son.