LGBT variety in asoiaf

[Castel]

PoC means person of color. A somewhat open, umbrella term for most non-white groups I believe.

[Mikkel]

:agree: I would also like to remind that the lack of POC in this series is a problem, but that is a different discussion so I will stop talking about it in this thread.

Problem? Why? Half the story is set on a continent where people are predominantly "POC". Of course, people there are assholes, too, but that shouldn't surprise anyone, since that's a human condition, not solely a straight white male thing :)

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Problem? Why? Half the story is set on a continent where people are predominantly "POC". Of course, people there are assholes, too, but that shouldn't surprise anyone, since that's a human condition, not solely a straight white male thing :)

Except that they aren't portrayed in the positive light are they? I mean the dothraki are presented as a brutal, chauvinistic, barbaric society and with the exception of few most people in Essos as either slavers or slaves. Again not very positive are they. The Martells, on the other hand are presented as pretty positive, but they don't count since GRRM said that he imagined them looking like mediterraneans. I love this book series, but lets not deny the fact they way POC, LGBTA are presented is pretty poorly.

[Castel]

I think it's just that he doesn't give a shit about Essos, or at the very least not as much as Westeros. That's how we get a range on Westeros and the Dothraki are all like caricatures of a murdering steppe tribe from some 18th Century historian's book of tales and the Essosi slavers are all generally evil. Martin is totally capable of avoiding this, it's just that it doesn't matter to his plot and it takes time and effort. I don't think that the supposed orientalism people see is deliberate.

We see everyone on Westeros from the inside, generally not the Essosi-or at least the southern parts. The Westerosi can see the Ironborn as evil caricatures but we've seen a range among them. But there's no Asha or Reader, no cliche Dornish hothead Oberyn contrasted with the more level-headed Doran for the Dothraki, just Dany.They all just seem like assholes.

I ran into an article recently that talked about the difference between Dany and her slaves, how Dany was distinct from her culture while for all her slaves there was no distinction between what "was known" and what they knew. Twas interesting if nothing else.

[Mikkel]

Except that they aren't portrayed in the positive light are they? I mean the dothraki are presented as a brutal, chauvinistic, barbaric society and with the exception of few most people in Essos as either slavers or slaves. Again not very positive are they. The Martells, on the other hand are presented as pretty positive, but they don't count since GRRM said that he imagined them looking like mediterraneans. I love this book series, but lets not deny the fact they way POC, LGBTA are presented is pretty poorly.

No worse than the Westerosi IMO, though I'll concede the point that a lot of the ones we see Daenerys interact with are pretty terrible. Mostly because they have to be, or she'd cease to be perceived a hero - and in any case, we see them from her (biased, as they're opposing her) point of view.

We have met a couple of Summer Islanders, who are described as black, and they're good people, and their culture sounds like it blows most anything else out of the water.

Also, Renly and Loras have something like the healthiest relationship in the entire series, at least if you assume Renly didn't abuse the master/squire relationship, and there's no evidence he did. Contrasted with almost every other couple in the books, whose relationships are a bit of a mess.

I don't know, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I just loathe the idea of including token <insert minority>, I find that much more offensive than them being underrepresented.

[Ser Silly Cat]

I don't know, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I just loathe the idea of including token <insert minority>, I find that much more offensive than them being underrepresented.

My feeling is "at least they are there". It is offensive though. Like how Renly is discussed as being very "fashionable" and the fact that most of the characters we could read as bisexual are female or POC or both (readas: "exotic bi babes").

[Rickeen Stark]

Ramsay is white.

Ramsay is a monster.

Ramsay is male.

All white males are monsters.

[Roddy the Ruin]

Ramsay is white.

Ramsay is a monster.

Ramsay is male.

All white males are monsters.

OK?

[Rickeen Stark]

Just thought you should know. - Except the Dayne, but, he is a god.

[Mikkel]

My feeling is "at least they are there". It is offensive though. Like how Renly is discussed as being very "fashionable" and the fact that most of the characters we could read as bisexual are female or POC or both (readas: "exotic bi babes").

Well no argument there, that is a bit of a cliche - he's neither effeminate nor (forgive the term) mincing around, and Loras is a badass warrior in his own right, so I wouldn't say it's too bad.

[Maester Pedant]

Well no argument there, that is a bit of a cliche - he's neither effeminate nor (forgive the term) mincing around, and Loras is a badass warrior in his own right, so I wouldn't say it's too bad.

More important than that, in my opinion, is that Renly and Loras are real characters. They're not just token gay guys. They have their aspirations, motivations, qualities and flaws far beyond the fact that they are gay.

[Ser Silly Cat]

Well no argument there, that is a bit of a cliche - he's neither effeminate nor (forgive the term) mincing around, and Loras is a badass warrior in his own right, so I wouldn't say it's too bad.

No it's isn't too bad, that's what I like about this series. It does come across though as Martin really not knowing how to write an LGBT character without leaning on stereotypes, which is still sooort of doing the "token minority" thing.

@Maester Pedant: yes, but it is still the only the commonly accepted LGBT group (ie white males) and it would be nice to have that same character depth elsewhere as well.

[Maester Pedant]

No it's isn't too bad, that's what I like about this series. It does come across though as Martin really not knowing how to write an LGBT character without leaning on stereotypes, which is still sooort of doing the "token minority" thing.

@Maester Pedant: yes, but it is still the only the commonly accepted LGBT group (ie white males) and it would be nice to have that same character depth elsewhere as well.

Oh well... Maybe in the next book Sansa realises she actually likes girls...

[Winter's Knight]

Oh well... Maybe in the next book Sansa realises she actually likes girls...

*pokes title* ;)

[PancakeMountainThatRides]

I'm sorry...it's just that you said Henry Cavill was goodlooking one time, so I made up a cute ship name for you.

There is no Henry Cavill ship except the HencakeCavillThatRides :commie:

I just wanted to add that the Fowler twins weren't the ones who kissed Quentyn, that was the Drinkwater twins, Gerris's sisters. For what it's worth, I hope the Fowler twins/Nymeria are lesbians and not bi. Not for some pervy reason, just it seems weird that there are no characters that are strictly lesbians. If Nymeria starts sleeping with everyone, girls and guys, once she gets to KL, I'll be seriously rolling my eyes. The slutty exotic bi girl has been done to death.

But I definitely don't feel like LGBT is underrepresented in general.

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

I said this in the other thread, but I do think Cersei is actively attracted to Taena (unlike Dany, who shows no real appreciation of Irri.) Sure her "taking of pleasure" is fucked up, but with her anything she does is going to be tinged with pathology. Including sleeping with Jaime.

So, I dunno. It seems to me like Cersei's crushing pretty hard on Taena. She might be genuinely bi. Or if not, then honestly she's too crazy to have a stable sexuality.

[Mikkel]

She might be genuinely bi. Or if not, then honestly she's too crazy to have a stable sexuality.

Dingdingding! IMO Cersei is damaged to the point where it's impossible for her to have any kind of healthy relationship - it probably always was, but it certainly is now.

[protar]

No it's isn't too bad, that's what I like about this series. It does come across though as Martin really not knowing how to write an LGBT character without leaning on stereotypes, which is still sooort of doing the "token minority" thing.

@Maester Pedant: yes, but it is still the only the commonly accepted LGBT group (ie white males) and it would be nice to have that same character depth elsewhere as well.

I disagree. I think that the most acceptance (especially in the media) is probably towards lesbians. Of course the reasons for that aren't exactly positive necessarily so...

[Ser Silly Cat]

I disagree. I think that the most acceptance (especially in the media) is probably towards lesbians. Of course the reasons for that aren't exactly positive necessarily so...

The kind of thing you are talking about is still marginalizing so I don't think I can really consider it acceptance, but I understand what you are trying to say (although that's less relevant to the series and more society as a whole unless you are bringing up the fxf sex scenes that are written into it)

[Maester Pedant]

The kind of thing you are talking about is still marginalizing so I don't think I can really consider it acceptance, but I understand what you are trying to say (although that's less relevant to the series and more society as a whole unless you are bringing up the fxf sex scenes that are written into it)

The fact that straight men find lesbian sex non-threatening and even titillating makes it more visible in the mainstream. GRRM is also guilty of that.