Cato.the.Elder Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I would say both. Evil, of course (she burns infidels alive, and is obsessed to find someone with king blood to burn her), and clearly Stannis is just a tool for her ends. Delusional? Probably also. In her POV she seemed more lost that we had thought before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayura Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 She is making a mistake in misinterpreting her fires, yes. She definitely saw Stannis had a role to play in the events to come, which is probably true. But she wrongly thinks he is Azor Ahai.On the other hand, she has noticed Jon Snow had an importance in the events to come as well, even though she doesn't seem to be able to put the pieces together just now. However, we might believe Mel is delusional or even interpreting her fires the wrong way, she is still the only red priest who managed to glimpse something needed to be done actively at the Wall and who is remotely on the "Jon is AAR" track. As for her character, I don't think she is evil. She embraced fire magic and showed a gift for it. However, as Val and Dalla say, magic is like a sword without a hilt and Melisandre herself recognises that her glamours and any other display of real fire magic (other than the usual tricks she does with her powders and other tricks) is very costly to her. She might be weird and she takes actions we find "evil", but deep down, from what we've seen, she feels she is invested with the mission to save the world. So even if her means are evil (she manipulates people, she burns others, she is up to killer-shadow-babies and so on) her intentions are good, she really does want to lead the forced of light vs darkness to save the day. The more I think about Mel, the more I am on board with the theory she is Shiera Seastar's daughter. I mean, it seems queer that while virtually all of the other red priests are gathering in Essos to support Daenerys as their champion and didn't make a move so far, Melisandre is the only red priest who glimpsed that important events would be happening at the Wall, involving Stannis Baratheon, Jon Snow, Mance Ryder and even Davos Seaworth (well she saw he was useful). She seems drawn to that part of the world where Bloodraven lingers while the other red priests don't seem (as far as we know) to be tuned on the same channel as her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of Lemoncakes Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Her zealousy is both her strength and her weakness. I do not think she is evil, I wouldn't even call her delusional. There is a sincerity to her that I think is often ignored, she isn't a puppet master, yet she clearly will justify her actions. She does feel as if she has the 'weight of the world on her shoulders'. Sometimes her sheer passion can result in rash decisions, yet I do think she is smart enough to progress onwards and doesn't strike me as blinded or ignorant as other characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayura Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Her zealousy is both her strength and her weakness. I do not think she is evil, I wouldn't even call her delusional. There is a sincerity to her that I think is often ignored, she isn't a puppet master, yet she clearly will justify her actions. She does feel as if she has the 'weight of the world on her shoulders'. Sometimes her sheer passion can result in rash decisions, yet I do think she is smart enough to progress onwards and doesn't strike me as blinded or ignorant as other characters. I think she can be considered as "delusional" because she believes the "God of Light" basically loves her and places very high hopes in her. In fact, she is just a puppet for whichever power she is using. Dalla and Val's words "a sword without a hilt" are not without sense, it can mean that at some point Mel is going to have to face the consequences of her use of that magic and, also, that she is not going to be able to control that power anymore. Mel's delusion is to believe she is an essential player in the Red God's camp while she will (imo) disover she is just a pawn. But I agree with the sincerity part, definitely :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 She's an overly zealous renegade going against the grain of the church, and now she has found what she believes is proof that her theories have been right all along. As such she is subject to huge amounts of confirmation bias and tunnel vision which causes her to miss what's really going on around her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleFinger Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 She's an overly zealous renegade going against the grain of the church, and now she has found what she believes is proof that her theories have been right all along. As such she is subject to huge amounts of confirmation bias and tunnel vision which causes her to miss what's really going on around her. I don't think she's going against the church nor a renegade. When she went to Dragonstone following her own idea about who AA was (Stannis), nobody in the world knew or gave a fuck about Dany a beggar princess with a silk dress to her name. None of these Red Priests that now proclaim Dany as AA due primarily to dragons had any idea about her before she popped up in Qarth. Has she even heard about Dany? The NW is the last to get news and even then would they believe it? Only Davos has been told about it and he hasn't been reunited yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I wouldn't call her evil. She is capable of compassion and her overall goal isn't an evil one. Evil belongs to someone like Cersei. Reading Mel's chapter there is a big difference between her and Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Personally, I don't believe that R'hllor or the Great Other are real; the Red Priests have powerful magic, but I don't think it comes from some divine inspiration. GRRM is too clever to make the resolution to the series be a conflict between the two all-powerful Gods and their tools, and we've never seen any evidence of any actual gods in the text beyond superstition and the magic of select priests. The Azor Ahai prophecy is different, it originates from sources other than the red religion's texts, and anyway I'll be a little disappointed if it fulfills itself without a hitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall Tyrion Lannister! Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 iirc during her pov when she asked the flames to show her Azor Ahai and it shows her Jon, she still thinks AA is is Stannis. So she is definately delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nothing Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I have a minor question related to this topic: In Mel’s POV she stated, she doesn’t need to eat and sleep at all, she does so only not to provoke an undesirable attention. (Don’t know exact quote, but it’s something along that line). I wonder – is it true – and she has some magic abilities, which may keep her alive without food and slumber OR it’s just another delusion – and she has normal human urges, but she sees herself as something supernatural. („I’m Batman ninja superhero, I don’t have to eat. “)? I think it’s the later… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Also, with regards to the original question: I wouldn't say she's evil, persay, but I think she might have a tendency towards insanity. People often say her only fault is believing that Stannis is Azor Ahai when it's really Jon/Dany/(insert crackpot theory here), but I think that she's pretty f*cked up besides that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I have a minor question related to this topic: In Mel’s POV she stated, she doesn’t need to eat and sleep at all, she does so only not to provoke an undesirable attention. (Don’t know exact quote, but it’s something along that line). I wonder – is it true – and she has some magic abilities, which may keep her alive without food and slumber OR it’s just another delusion – and she has normal human urges, but she sees herself as something supernatural. („I’m Batman ninja superhero, I don’t have to eat. “)? I think it’s the later… I think it might be the former, actually. In addition to not needing food or sleep, she gives off heat in these sub zero temperatures while wearing only silk robes. I don't think literal heat is part of a glamour, given that this is what's missing from Stannis' lightbringer, so I'm inclined to believe this is another example of some sort of supernatural transformation. And she does actually stay up all night. Additionally, Moqorro survived that shipwreck for over 10 days in the middle of sea by the time he ends up on board with Vic. I do think there's suggestion that the Reds have transcended their humanity in some capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Dragon the Crispy Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 She is just really bad at interpreting the flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander18 Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I have major gripes with the term "evil" so I am just not going to address that at all as I would rather spend hours considering the other sides to Joffrey, Ramsay, Euron, and the like than just write them off as "evil". I see where people are coming from with it, but I just find it too massive a concept to properly discuss here. As for "delusional", I would say that she definitely dances with it. I think she still possesses too much sincerity, as Lady of Lemoncakes said, to be considered "delusional" yet. She is a little bit more than driven, but not quite delusional, in my books. Yes, she seems to have started to deny the recent appearances of Jon in the fires but I see that as more of a human, sane, thing to do after so much time dedicated wholly to Stannis. I would consider her delusional if she continued to believe in Stannis post-his death (should that occur) or something else massive, and possibly a chain of evidence, to prove her wrong. I just feel the term evokes an extreme she has not yet reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSnape Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 A religious fanatic. Nothing more, nothing less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Goat Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Delusional. And a well-intentioned extremist. Not evil though. There is no malice in her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howlin' Howland Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I think her mistake is that she thinks she needs to force the prophecies to come true. She's so busy trying to make the prophecies happen that she doesn't recognize it when they actually come true without her help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Her zealousy is both her strength and her weakness. I do not think she is evil, I wouldn't even call her delusional. There is a sincerity to her that I think is often ignored, she isn't a puppet master, yet she clearly will justify her actions. She does feel as if she has the 'weight of the world on her shoulders'. Sometimes her sheer passion can result in rash decisions, yet I do think she is smart enough to progress onwards and doesn't strike me as blinded or ignorant as other characters. Mostly this. She also is putting up a facade out of survival instinct. She was a slave at one time, and she has learned that her power is her survival mechanism, as well as, hammering home her beliefs. That is why she still uses powders etc. I think it might be the former, actually. In addition to not needing food or sleep, she gives off heat in these sub zero temperatures while wearing only silk robes. I don't think literal heat is part of a glamour, given that this is what's missing from Stannis' lightbringer, so I'm inclined to believe this is another example of some sort of supernatural transformation. And she does actually stay up all night. Additionally, Moqorro survived that shipwreck for over 10 days in the middle of sea by the time he ends up on board with Vic. I do think there's suggestion that the Reds have transcended their humanity in some capacity. Very Interesting point. I do not think there are actual gods in this story, but very powerful people. I think her mistake is that she thinks she needs to force the prophecies to come true. She's so busy trying to make the prophecies happen that she doesn't recognize it when they actually come true without her help. This is a nail head right here. I think she can see the future(misinterprets a lot), but thinks she has to do things to make that happen. Then again sometimes she actually does have to (shadowbaby), but she cannot tell the difference between the ones she has to help and the ones that will be regardless. I think she deludes herself a bit with the AA prophesy, as she is getting visions that are contradicting her beliefs, and she is choosing to ignore them. For the most part though she is a "For the greater good" type character and feels just in her actions. What was it Varys said about a truly just person. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 I think she deludes herself a bit with the AA prophesy, as she is getting visions that are contradicting her beliefs, and she is choosing to ignore them. For the most part though she is a "For the greater good" type character and feels just in her actions. What was it Varys said about a truly just person. :)And don't forget what is commonly said about what happens to those who play with fire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojosh Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 She's wrong about Stannis being AA but she's right about everything else What's she delusional about? has she even been proven wrong in the story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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