Fat Trell Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Mace Tyrells doesn't get any respect because: He doesn't get beheaded thanks to quite stupid political moves, He doesn't drag to war thousands of people to avenge the death of his father, He doesn't have sexual relationships with his sister, He doesn't brutally murder his father in the privy, He doesn't get killed like a dumbass in a judicial duel, He doesn't get mortally burned in one of the most idiotic moments of the story, while trying to catch a dangerous flying and fire spiting reptile, He doesn't mutilate one man that just saved his life, He doesn' behave like a glutton and drunkard, that goes to bed with everything that has a vagina in the Seven Kingdoms, with the exception of his own wife, He could not raise children that hate their siblings, He could not fail in leading the most prosperous and fertile region in the Seven Kingdoms, peacefully and quietly, He could not have an animal like a symbol, but he has a flower He could not have a bloodbath in attacking an impregnable fortress, choosing instead to block that fortress. Thats some of the reasons that make Mace Tyrell unworthy of any respect. Sheesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Mace Tyrells doesn't get any respect because: He doesn't get beheaded thanks to quite stupid political moves, He doesn't drag to war thousands of people to avenge the death of his father, He doesn't have sexual relationships with his sister, He doesn't brutally murder his father in the privy, He doesn't get killed like a dumbass in a judicial duel, He doesn't get mortally burned in one of the most idiotic moments of the story, while trying to catch a dangerous flying and fire spiting reptile, He doesn't mutilate one man that just saved his life, He doesn' behave like a glutton and drunkard, that goes to bed with everything that has a vagina in the Seven Kingdoms, with the exception of his own wife, He could not raise children that hate their siblings, He could not fail in leading the most prosperous and fertile region in the Seven Kingdoms, peacefully and quietly, He could not have an animal like a symbol, but he has a flower He could not have a bloodbath in attacking an impregnable fortress, choosing instead to block that fortress. Thats some of the reasons that make Mace Tyrell unworthy of any respect. That doesn't get you respect. It gets you love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Why do people keep saying Mace sat out Roberts' Rebellion? It was Mace Tyrells' army led by Randyll Tarly that defeated Robert and forced him to run away north in a attempt to link up with allies and left Storms End open to siege with Stannis and Renly, Roberts' heirs, stuck inside the castle. I do not think people really seem to grasp this for some reason that I can not really comprehend. There were many Storm Lords who were loyal to Robert, forces had to be brought up the Boneway from Dorne. There was a number of legitimate reason that the bulk of the Reach's forces were kept in the Stormlands. Kevan told us in the epilouge that Mace's support for the Targaryeans went beyond the point of reason. He did everything the Targaryeans asked him to do and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 I do not think people really seem to grasp this for some reason that I can not really comprehend. There were many Storm Lords who were loyal to Robert, forces had to be brought up the Boneway from Dorne. There was a number of legitimate reason that the bulk of the Reach's forces were kept in the Stormlands. Kevan told us in the epilouge that Mace's support for the Targaryeans went beyond the point of reason. He did everything the Targaryeans asked him to do and more. I believe Kevan says Mace supported Aerys "to the bitter end." I think this was more a statement on how the Tyrells didn't break their siege until Ned came to accept their surrender(after the sack of King's Landing, well after the Trident). Not that Mace went above and beyond in his commitment to the war effort. Note that only a few hundred levies were sent to assist Rhaegar at the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 To just speak to the broad strokes of your post: I'm not saying Mace Tyrell is a good person, or even that he is person worthy of your respect. I am saying that despite everyone in universe and out deriding him as a buffoon, he has proven himself to be a capable leader and politician in this setting. And that he deserves his accomplishments as the leader of house and kingdom to recognized, if not respected. I just find it odd that in a fan base that questions everything. we so readily accept that Mace is an incompetent. Mace's saving grace up until now is that he is surrounded by competent people and for the most part he gives them some scope to act without interfering or being a micro manager. I see Mace as being more of a blowhard then an incompetent. He also has the luxury of being the 800 lb. gorilla in the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I believe Kevan says Mace supported Aerys "to the bitter end." I think this was more a statement on how the Tyrells didn't break their siege until Ned came to accept their surrender(after the sack of King's Landing, well after the Trident). Not that Mace went above and beyond in his commitment to the war effort. Note that only a few hundred levies were sent to assist Rhaegar at the Trident. He continued the siege after Aerys had died and Robert was on the Throne perhaps in the hope of capturing the two brothers and Storms End and perhaps continuing the war. The exact quote is, "the same Father that you supported to the bitter end and well beyond." Keep in mind that the defeat of Rhaegar and the capture of KL opened uip the possibility of a second front for the Reach in the West with the Tullys and the Lannisters. Tywin only brought 12,000 men with him, a fraction of his strength, so keeping the seige of SE til Ned came was really a ballsy move and if things had worked out differently the war might have continued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 He continued the siege after Aerys had died and Robert was on the Throne perhaps in the hope of capturing the two brothers and Storms End and perhaps continuing the war. The exact quote is, "the same Father that you supported to the bitter end and well beyond." Keep in mind that the defeat of Rhaegar and the capture of KL opened uip the possibility of a second front for the Reach in the West with the Tullys and the Lannisters. Tywin only brought 12,000 men with him, a fraction of his strength, so keeping the seige of SE til Ned came was really a ballsy move and if things had worked out differently the war might have continued. I think he just wanted to surrender to Ned and an actual army as opposed to Stannis and his tiny garrison to save face. If he had desperately wanted to capture Robert's heirs he could have at least made an attempt to storm the castle. Plus to fight for a clearly lost cause strikes me as very unlike the normal course of action for the Tyrells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Abominable SnowOther Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I think he just wanted to surrender to Ned and an actual army as opposed to Stannis and his tiny garrison to save face. If he had desperately wanted to capture Robert's heirs he could have at least made an attempt to storm the castle. Plus to fight for a clearly lost cause strikes me as very unlike the normal course of action for the Tyrells. At the time,Tyrells were staunch Targ supporters, they owed overything to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I think he just wanted to surrender to Ned and an actual army as opposed to Stannis and his tiny garrison to save face. If he had desperately wanted to capture Robert's heirs he could have at least made an attempt to storm the castle. Plus to fight for a clearly lost cause strikes me as very unlike the normal course of action for the Tyrells. If he had Stannis and Renly as hostages this give him some leverage and Storms End is a very strong fortification and capturing it has symbolic value just like Robb losing Winterfell undermined his cause. Mace would have taken it if it wasn't for Davos. But yeah once Ned showed up with Stannis still holding out it was pretty much hopeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablius Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Let`s see...Mace Tyrell... As far as I remember he didn`t earn anything, he just happened to be the next in line to rule the most fertile and populous region in Westeros And then he chose the losing side in war...twice...(I don`t suscribe to the notion than killing with magic is akin to cheating, it`s war, Renly was lacking as a commander for not knowing what was going on in his brother court/camp...I don`t particularly like Stannis, but for other reasons, not this) Why respect him? For not being a tyrant? ok, but he is not exactly the poster child for political acumen or military mastermind...he is a below average lord sitting on a colossal inheritance, his greatest achievement has been just to not squander it completely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Scorpion Knight Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I just noticed that he was indeed right about Robb, Lysa and Stannis. Lolz. but right now he underestimating the biggestthreat to himn in KL the high sparrow Mace Tyrells doesn't get any respect because: ... He could not fail in leading the most prosperous and fertile region in the Seven Kingdoms, peacefully and quietly, ... He could not have a bloodbath in attacking an impregnable fortress, choosing instead to block that fortress. .. one could argue that mace is the reason randyll tarly is so horrible to samwell .... A smuggler managed to get through with the one thing proloning a siege FOOD Mace's saving grace up until now is that he is surrounded by competent people and for the most part he gives them some scope to act without interfering or being a micro manager. I see Mace as being more of a blowhard then an incompetent. He also has the luxury of being the 800 lb. gorilla in the room. right mnow IMHO the 800lbs gorilla in the room isn't mace it's the high sparrow(marg to be tried by him remember) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 It's going to be so funny when in book 7 when Mace reveals that everything that has happened since Robert's Rebellion has been part of his plan, and that Varys, Illyrio, and Littlefinger were his unwitting pawns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 If he had Stannis and Renly as hostages this give him some leverage and Storms End is a very strong fortification and capturing it has symbolic value just like Robb losing Winterfell undermined his cause. Mace would have taken it if it wasn't for Davos. But yeah once Ned showed up with Stannis still holding out it was pretty much hopeless. Why not make an attempt to take the castle then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Not even the gods could take Storm's End. Even Stannis, who must know most of its secrets, had to use magic to safely get one man and a tiny garrison out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Kevan Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Stannis didn't want to risk any of his little army for taking back what it his. That would not be Stannisic. No talking about the bad view he get for kill Baratheon men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Not even the gods could take Storm's End. Even Stannis, who must know most of its secrets, had to use magic to safely get one man and a tiny garrison out of it. Its just a castle. There may be magic there, but its still just a castle. Melisandre compares it to the Wall I believe. Raiders get through the Wall all the time, magic or no. Mance would have made it through the wall with a huge host if it hadn't been for Stannis' timing. Stannis had a war to fight. He didn't have the men to take the castle by force and then fight the Lannisters. Nor did he have the time to starve the garrison out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Why not make an attempt to take the castle then? I lack the information to answer this. It seems like breaking down the gate would be the best way to go about this and I'm not sure why this wasn't tried or if it was tried and failed. It seems like the walls are too thick to be battered down by the seige engines available. I agree that the magical wards around the castle seem to only work against certain things and normal humans are not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 It's a castle with an epic reputation, one of the most defensible fortresses in all of the Seven Kingdoms. Can it be taken? Sure. But what would be the point of such epic bloodshed? If it were any other person holed in Storm's End, they would have yielded to Tyrell long before Ned came to lift the siege. Sure, maybe you can argue that Tyrell should have known of Stannis's reputation (although at the time Stannis was what, 16? 17? Who would have known that he was Robocop?) but honestly, not storming SE was a smart idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 It's a castle with an epic reputation, one of the most defensible fortresses in all of the Seven Kingdoms. Can it be taken? Sure. But what would be the point of such epic bloodshed? If it were any other person holed in Storm's End, they would have yielded to Tyrell long before Ned came to lift the siege. Sure, maybe you can argue that Tyrell should have known of Stannis's reputation (although at the time Stannis was what, 16? 17? Who would have known that he was Robocop?) but honestly, not storming SE was a smart idea. Exactly, this has been my argument from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I think he just wanted to surrender to Ned and an actual army as opposed to Stannis and his tiny garrison to save face. If he had desperately wanted to capture Robert's heirs he could have at least made an attempt to storm the castle. Plus to fight for a clearly lost cause strikes me as very unlike the normal course of action for the Tyrells. This. See how Tytos Blackwood waited to surrender to Jaime rather than to Jonos Bracken. It's a matter of pride plus hoping to get better terms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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