Tyrion & Shae

[Chillboy]

But is she a completely evil, greedy, lying, cheating whore? Also no.

What has she done solely for the benefit of others?

We dont know much about her, but we know that she is a whore, which means that she has basically sold herself for money. So she might be greedy. Also, we know very well that she is lying as she has proven in Tyrion's trial.

Is she evil? She lied at the Tyrion's trial. This trial has sentenced Tyrion to death. She has helped to try to kill Tyrion. How can she be not evil?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

You know, you haven't quite convinced me, but you make/sum up some very good points, definitely food for thought the next time I re-read.

I maintain she's scum for perverting the trial, there's no excuse for it, but re-reading in a different light may change my opinion of her character from "ignorant" to "desperate" as to why she wanted the jewels back so badly.

:D You Ser have really impressed me.

I'm not so cut and dried re the trial, I mean in Westeros in her place I agree with DanyGirl. I'd very likely do the same, we can't forget that Cersei is a sociopath and she had Shae arrested before the woman had any chance of escaping the RK. & the "promise" Cersei made to her being the only chance Shae has of gaining anything out of the time she wasted with tyrion who is a dead man walking at this point anyway.

But in a modern day real life court of lore in my own country with all our legal aid and womens aid charities. No way would I do what she did. It was wrong.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Im just saying that I think it is only logical that Tyrion has payed Shae. There is no need for a quote where is stated that he has payed her. Paying for something is normal. The only reason to state something about her payment would be Tyrion not paying her.

Sorry for not making my point clear.

But its really not logical its not in the text. Nothing supports your claims there are not even arguments to state its indicated or that certain scenes can be interpreted to say he has paid her.

But there is to say he has not and that Shae behaves in a way which indicates she hasn't been paid ie "A Lannister always pays his debts" said to him whilst asking about the jewels, silks & lie in a manse in your above quoted text.

The reasons for Tyrion to say something about her payment would be him reassuring her that she will indeed be paid, or him saying don't forget Shae your money is safe, you will get your jewellery too. I will return these if you wish to leave... But we do know from Tyrions internal monologue in a different scene I think it is the next time he suggests she leave, That he does not really want her too, even though he knows how dangerous it is for her in KL.

[Ser Eric]

It's very hard to be at all sympathetic towards Shae when she knew exactly what she was doing in the trial. Lying is one thing but going a step beyond and humiliating him sealed her fate.

Yes, it's so stupid for a whore to want her money!

:P

Becase that's what I said :rolleyes:

[Jory Cassel]

You know, you haven't quite convinced me, but you make/sum up some very good points, definitely food for thought the next time I re-read.

I maintain she's scum for perverting the trial, there's no excuse for it, but re-reading in a different light may change my opinion of her character from "ignorant" to "desperate" as to why she wanted the jewels back so badly.

Out of curiosity, do you consider Tyrion scum as well?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

What has she done solely for the benefit of others?

We dont know much about her, but we know that she is a whore, which means that she has basically sold herself for money. So she might be greedy. Also, we know very well that she is lying as she has proven in Tyrion's trial.

Is she evil? She lied at the Tyrion's trial. This trial has sentenced Tyrion to death. She has helped to try to kill Tyrion. How can she be not evil?

WOW, don't hide your true feelings hey... Gosh.

Just GOSH... We have NO idea at all if or what Shae may have done for others benefit in her life. There are to my knowledge no in book examples of her being selfless but what does that prove exactly?

We don't know much about her, but we know that she is a whore. Judgemental much. We do in fact know exactly why she is a whore... she was sexually abused and enslaved by her father, escaped that life with nothing as a young woman, she is only 17 when we meet her but the fact she see's through Vary's mummers guises tells us she has years of street experience.

Which means she has basically sold herself for money, yes prostitution is the last resort of the desperate, women don't generally go into it for the LOLS. So because she turned to prostitution, after escaping what amounts to a living hell, she might be greedy. Just what the now....

Also we know very well she is lying as she has proven in Tyrion's trial.. So if you ever lie even once in your life every word you speak is a lie? right? Actually I am happy to say she lies, of course she lies. She is selling herself for sex and her client wants to believe she is his lover, this in its very essence requires lies.

She is IMO trying to manipulate Tyrion into handing back her wages by making out she just wants to go to the party, which when you consider her experience the last time she was upfront and straight with him (at the Manse when she said she does not want to go to the keep) he hit her and told her all about a woman he once "loved" who his father had gang raped and whom he raped too. She has every reason NOT to come out straight and say please pay me I want to go. Men like that don't like it when they have to face the truth, she's using all her tricks to get out alive. Don't forget how many women she will have known who were killed by their john. You see when you read so one dimensionally you miss so much, By refusing to consider Shae's life experience you render yourself unable to empathise with her position. And in doing that you close yourself off to so much of the story and so much of Tyrion's character. He is not the only POV which requires deep thinking during reading, GRRM is a master at this type of writing.

[Dany Girl]

What has she done solely for the benefit of others?

We dont know much about her, but we know that she is a whore, which means that she has basically sold herself for money. So she might be greedy. Also, we know very well that she is lying as she has proven in Tyrion's trial.

Is she evil? She lied at the Tyrion's trial. This trial has sentenced Tyrion to death. She has helped to try to kill Tyrion. How can she be not evil?

My point is that I don't feel we know enough to write her off as completely evil.

Shae was kind to Sansa, even if Shae talked about Sansa behind her back.

We have no idea if she has helped people. Yes, likely not, but not out of being a bitch but because of her station in life she has no ability to help others, she can barely help herself.

And we have no knowledge of why she lied at Tyrion's trial. If she was under threat of Cersei, which is highly likely given what we know about Cersei, then her behavior is understandable, if not forgivable.

As Weirwood said, in today's court, it's completely unacceptable. Shae would be protected and not threatened to testify. But Shea does not live in the modern world, she lives in Westeros, where her life is completely in Cersei's hands at this point. I doubt Cersei only promised her money, I strongly suspect there was a threat involved. So if Shae's life is in danger, then her actions are understandable.

[Cas Stark]

We have to go off the books. It isn't in the books but it might exist is like saying we have no idea if Ramsay Bolton has a 'good side'...maybe he does...maybe he loves kittens and old ladies...that just because all we have seen is an insane, sexual sadist, serial killer torturer...doesn't mean that's all there is to him.

We know what the author wrote about Shae and that is not one single line of anything remotely kind or generous.

The author has written many characters who do good and bad things. He wrote Shae having her do no good things at all. I suggest there is a reason for this.

[Dany Girl]

WOW, don't hide your true feelings hey... Gosh.

Just GOSH... We have NO idea at all if or what Shae may have done for others benefit in her life. There are to my knowledge no in book examples of her being selfless but what does that prove exactly?

We don't know much about her, but we know that she is a whore. Judgemental much. We do in fact know exactly why she is a whore... she was sexually abused and enslaved by her father, escaped that life with nothing as a young woman, she is only 17 when we meet her but the fact she see's through Vary's mummers guises tells us she has years of street experience.

Which means she has basically sold herself for money, yes prostitution is the last resort of the desperate, women don't generally go into it for the LOLS. So because she turned to prostitution, after escaping what amounts to a living hell, she might be greedy. Just what the now....

Also we know very well she is lying as she has proven in Tyrion's trial.. So if you ever lie even once in your life every word you speak is a lie? right? Actually I am happy to say she lies, of course she lies. She is selling herself for sex and her client wants to believe she is his lover, this in its very essence requires lies.

She is IMO trying to manipulate Tyrion into handing back her wages by making out she just wants to go to the party, which when you consider her experience the last time she was upfront and straight with him (at the Manse when she said she does not want to go to the keep) he hit her and told her all about a woman he once "loved" who his father had gang raped and whom he raped too. She has every reason NOT to come out straight and say please pay me I want to go. Men like that don't like it when they have to face the truth, she's using all her tricks to get out alive. Don't forget how many women she will have known who were killed by their john. You see when you read so one dimensionally you miss so much, By refusing to consider Shae's life experience you render yourself unable to empathise with her position. And in doing that you close yourself off to so much of the story and so much of Tyrion's character. He is not the only POV which requires deep thinking during reading, GRRM is a master at this type of writing.

I agree. I'm seeing a lot of condemnation for a very young girl in a very difficult situation. Her world is very different than ours, even different than our POV characters. There are social rules for how nobles treat nobles, but to nobles, servants and small folk are toys. There is nothing to protect them. They are completely dependent on the kindness of their higher ups. If Cersei had Shae's throat slit in the middle of the wedding feast, not a single person would speak out against it, there would be zero backlash on Cersei. Shae was powerless to stand against the fricking Queen!

[Mikkel]

Out of curiosity, do you consider Tyrion scum as well?

I do, though for different reasons, for instance I think he treated Shae fairly well, at least as far as John/Prostitute relations go (until he kills her, obviously) but he's scum for many other reasons, particularly post-fratricide.

Excuses/explanations can be made for many of his actions, like they can for Shae, but both are terrible human beings IMO.

[4th Dragon Head]

As I said in an earlier post, the original post on this topic came at a time when I was rereading the exact scenes in SOS. So when I said she deserved what she got, that was a little bitter of me, and speaking out of emotion rather than sense.

I still understand why he did it, based on what we know happened from his perspective.

But I am beginning to feel a little bit of sympathy for Shae. I think her actions came more from self-preservation than anything else, and she was trying to survive and possibly move up a wrung on the ladder. I get that. Did she do it honorably? Of course not, but I guess its no more than we should expect from a whore in the situation she was in.

And I still think that, in the show, it will come out as more justified, BC the show plays out their "love" more than the books. In the show, she actually seems to care about him, and he openly, not just in his thoughts, care about her safety.. I think a big reason why is BC of the outrage some people have shown over Ty's actions in the book. So they play out her affections for him as genuine, so it will be a bigger payoff when he finally kills her

[WeddinGuest]

What has she done solely for the benefit of others?

We dont know much about her, but we know that she is a whore, which means that she has basically sold herself for money. So she might be greedy. Also, we know very well that she is lying as she has proven in Tyrion's trial.

Is she evil? She lied at the Tyrion's trial. This trial has sentenced Tyrion to death. She has helped to try to kill Tyrion. How can she be not evil?

I don't think Shae was a wonderful person by any means, but this idea that she's the stereotypical "evil greedy whore" is way too reductionist for me. Why have all that backstory of her running away from home after being raped by her own father, if she wasn't supposed to be a bit pitiable?

Now, I've noticed a tendency around here for people to either assume (1) all whores are either sex-crazed or greedy, the old "evil seductress of a whore" trope or (2) all whores are pitiful victims of sexual exploitation, which another trope. The TV version of Shae the whore with a heart of gold is yet another trope.

Why not try to evaluate the individual PERSON who happens to be engaged in prostitution. There's this tendency to see "whore" as not a profession, but an identity that blots out everything else there is to know about the person, and class all "whores" as the same, with the same motivations for what they do, which is, as I have stated above, reductionist.

Now, I certainly don't think Shae is meant to be a nice person. She's a survivor, and while yes, other survivors (such as Sansa and Arya) have retained compassion and empathy, note that Sansa and Arya both benefited from a decade, more or less, of being very well-off both materially and being actually loved and cared for by their parents, something rather rare even for highborns. Shae never got the benefit of that, and I also totally understood why she'd dismiss Lollys as a victim. Though being abused doesn't give her a total free pass. After all, Gilly, also a lowborn girl who was also abused by her father (and also referred to as a "whore" by Stannis), is a much a kinder person.

But I think Shae's sins are pretty minimal compared to many others who get a lot of love and forgiveness on these forums, including Tyrion himself.

[Cas Stark]

GGRM gives almost everyone a back story that provides some level of explanation for their character, even Ramsay and the Mountain have back stories that help explain their depravity.

He also takes pains to show a very wide degree of reactions to privilege, poverty, abuse and crisis...that range from noble to cowardice to evil and everything in between.

Shae is there to show that some people who are abused don't rise above it, they don't retain their essential humanity and are not able to empathize with other people, even other victims of similar abuse.

[Dany Girl]

And I still think that, in the show, it will come out as more justified, BC the show plays out their "love" more than the books. In the show, she actually seems to care about him, and he openly, not just in his thoughts, care about her safety.. I think a big reason why is BC of the outrage some people have shown over Ty's actions in the book. So they play out her affections for him as genuine, so it will be a bigger payoff when he finally kills her

Ugh, the changes the show made piss me off so much in this case. My bf and I were watching season 3 last night and the scene between Shae and Varys really made me mad after this discussion yesterday. Varys gives her money to go, she says Tyrion has to tell her to go and throws it back. She talks about loving Sansa and how she'd die for her. She talks about loving Tyrion. She's the complete opposite of book Shae.

I don't know what's more annoying:

-tv!Shae

-the Talise replacing Jeyne bs

-changing "Asha" to "Yara" (for some reason this just pisses me off)

[Mikkel]

I don't think Shae was a wonderful person by any means, but this idea that she's the stereotypical "evil greedy whore" is way too reductionist for me.

Is that a stereotype? I thought the "hooker with a heart of gold" was the stereotype.

[Cas Stark]

Ugh, the changes the show made piss me off so much in this case. My bf and I were watching season 3 last night and the scene between Shae and Varys really made me mad after this discussion yesterday. Varys gives her money to go, she says Tyrion has to tell her to go and throws it back. She talks about loving Sansa and how she'd die for her. She talks about loving Tyrion. She's the complete opposite of book Shae.

I don't know what's more annoying:

-tv!Shae

-the Talise replacing Jeyne bs

-changing "Asha" to "Yara" (for some reason this just pisses me off)

Nothing, I repeat, Nothing is worse than "Talisa". I also hate that they changed Shae in the show, but then I don't think they are going to have Tyrion kill her in the show, it would be too jarring to have the 'hooker with the heart of gold' who really doesn't care about money and loves Tyrion and Sansa end up murdered by him...the TV audience would never get over it.

[WeddinGuest]

Is that a stereotype? I thought the "hooker with a heart of gold" was the stereotype.

There are many stereotypes about whores, but the poster I was replying to did seem to be judging Shae as greedy simply because of her profession. That's certainly based on a stereotype. That's what annoyed me.

[4th Dragon Head]

I wholeheartedly agree with Danygirl about the changes. The Talisa/Jeyne thing was unnecessary, and having her at the RW and the baby killing was stupid. Why D&D felt they needed to add more sadness to the saddest moment so far in the series is mindblowing.

The asha/yara change was almost insulting. Its not a big change, but they felt like they had too many characters whose names were similar, and felt like we couldn't keep up. Give us some respect, gosh!! Its the same with "Robin" Arryn.

As far as the TV Shea goes, its a little too over the top. While I'm a Tyrion fan, they overplay it too much, probably BC of how much everyone loves Peter Dinklage. They make it seem like she was some poor, lost helpless girl who Ty rescued, and then she fell head over heels for him after. But like I said, this probably serves their end, as it will make for a bigger payoff when she betrays him and he kills her

[Dany Girl]

Nothing, I repeat, Nothing is worse than "Talisa". I also hate that they changed Shae in the show, but then I don't think they are going to have Tyrion kill her in the show, it would be too jarring to have the 'hooker with the heart of gold' who really doesn't care about money and loves Tyrion and Sansa end up murdered by him...the TV audience would never get over it.

Well at least we agree on something :D

I wonder if she'll be in on his escape and go to Essos with him. Or if she'll end up married to Bronn. Or if Cersei will give her to Qyburn.

[Cas Stark]

Well at least we agree on something :D

I wonder if she'll be in on his escape and go to Essos with him. Or if she'll end up married to Bronn. Or if Cersei will give her to Qyburn.

I don't know, I found it a really weird choice what they did w/TV Shae, if they were going to change her character, it would have to me been much more interesting if they made their relationship more of a question for the audience...is there any affection there or not, leave it open to multiple interpretations...as opposed to doing the polar opposite of the book.

I simply can't see how they will have Tyrion kill her.

I found book Shae, as you know from this thread, to have zero redeeming qualities...and I was horrified that Tyrion murdered her and it changed my view of his character and I am still POd that even 2 books later he's not even sorry FFS. So, I can't imagine how the show thinks they can take a hugely sympathetic TV Shae and have him kill her. It's impossible. Someone else has to do it.