Tyrion & Shae

[Jasta11]

Are you sure he would have? Did he ever make that offer to her?

He did. She shut him down herself.

I'll echo what others have said here; Shae didn't deserve to be murdered, but in no way was she an innocent victim either. She actively wanted to remain by Tyrion's side, ignoring many of his advices and warnings, and during the trial she purposefully lied to humiliate him and put on a show for the crowd, while knowing her ancient patron has immense self-esteem issues. She didn't owe him much, but that false testimony was just unneeded cruelty.

And I very much doubt Cercei forced her to testify. Shae got a big reward for her part, and she said things Cercei had no way of knowing (mostly the ''giant of Lannister'' part). Furthermore, Cercei herself never goes back to that topic in her PoVs, even if she ceaselessly thinks back to Tyrion and would probably remember if she tortured the girl or have her interrogated. Besides, it's perfectly in character for Shae to just abandon Tyrion when he's in the shite. Which is perfectly understandable: the humiliating lies, however, are not. Shae is a bad person, period, and a hard childhood doesn't justify that.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

And you still havn't answered my question, is she greedy for wanting to be paid for over 18 months work, will you then please come over to my house and spend the next year scullying about for me please. I might pay you one day. If things work out inthe end. Oh I want you to clean my kids bums too you won't mind though If I don't pay you.

[A wilding]

And I very much doubt Cercei forced her to testify. Shae got a big reward for her part, and she said things Cercei had no way of knowing (mostly the ''giant of Lannister'' part). Furthermore, Cercei herself never goes back to that topic in her PoVs, even if she ceaselessly thinks back to Tyrion and would probably remember if she tortured the girl or have her interrogated. Besides, it's perfectly in character for Shae to just abandon Tyrion when he's in the shite. Which is perfectly understandable: the humiliating lies, however, are not. Shae is a bad person, period, and a hard childhood doesn't justify that.

Cersei had Shae locked in a cell when Shae agreed to testify. That is clearly threatening her by itself, even in the unlikely event Cersei never actually made any verbal threats. And while Cersei may have promised a reward, she never actually gave it .

[A wilding]

Shae to Tyrion "After the battle (of the Blackwater) I tried to get my jewels back from Varys but he would not give them to me. What would have happened to them if you had died?"

Tyrion changes the subject.

Shae to Tyrion "A Lannister always pays his debts you said."

Tyrion changes the subject again.

And we are supposed to think Shae was confident of Tyrion's generosity?

[Woman of War]

Cersei had Shae locked in a cell when Shae agreed to testify. That is clearly threatening her by itself, even in the unlikely event Cersei never actually made any verbal threats. And while Cersei may have promised a reward, she never actually gave it .

And it was not the best idea of Shae to go to Cersei after Tyrion' s arrest and to demand her jewels. Actually Shae was delusional if she thought she might get away with that. She could have been aware of the danger she now is in as the kingslayer's whore. And she should have run. This would have spared her the cell.

[GallantGambler]

The thing is my stretches and your stretches both serve our individual interpretations of the text.

I really don't feel that the simplest explanation is that he asked and she wanted to and the chain proves it AT ALL

I think we have no idea and there are multiple possibilities I listed the ones I could think of, and her wearing teh chain proves nothing as I earlier pointed out she could be wearing it because Tywin wanted her to. People have al manor of fetishes and symbols of authority being worn by one participant is comon.

I disagree,given what we know of Shae we have no idea if she'd turn him down given real choice, and given what we know of Tywin do you really think he genuinly gave her a choice, this is the woman his son whom he has just sentenced to death loved, it would seem he is getting some pretty sick jollys on this

Yes I'd take it over camp follower, but Shae is holding out for the means to escape that life, with those jewels and gowns she can make a better life for herself she can aproach a high class brothel and she'd likely be accepted she is very beautiful and dressed in the right gear she could make a lot of money and be a lot safer and have a pretty nice life in a good establishment.

the fact High Borns get married off is here nor there Tyrion was not her father he was not in the position to just casually arrange a wedding, Shea was before metting him an independant though poverty stricken woman. Now if he'd approached her with the idea and consulted her regarding who she married I'd be fine with it, but he treats her like his property when he decides to just marry her off.

I don't dispute lying under oath was shitty at all, I just understand WHY she would do it.

1. True, we know nothing about the context of their meeting. Therefore, I'll just assume she was a whore gleefully doing a whore's job instead of subscribing to some insane theory that she was there for any other reason like being drugged planted there by Varys or some such crackpot.

2. You're right, Shae probably didn't have a choice in meeting with Tywin. Even so, I'll never believe she wasn't thrilled at the prospect of getting with him. Tywin can be pretty petty, but I don't know if I can believe he f*cked Shae in an attempt to get back at Tyrion. What is he getting back at him for, exactly?

3. Like I said previously, ambition and trying to better yourself and your prospects is not a bad thing at all. I don't fault Shae for wanting a better life for herself, I just fault her for what she was willing to do to secure it. As readers, Shae doesn't have the luxury of knowing what we know, but I think you and I can agree that her chances of getting what she wanted were much higher if she threw her lot in with Tyrion as opposed to Cersei. The circumstances were screwed up, but for all of Tyrion's faults, I just can't believe that he was going to leave her out in the cold with nothing. Had she not testified(wasn't ultimately her choice, I'm sure), Tyrion likely would've asked Varys to give her all that he promised her during his escape because he still would've had a very rosy picture of her in his mind. It's all very unfortunate.

4. Tell that to Hoster and Brynded Tully.

5. Fair enough.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

The thing I object to is people making out she duped him and deserved it.

This idea she was reaching above her station and got burnt for it. Its so distasteful, and that she ought to have grovelled to him about how lucky she was to be safe scrubbing Lolly's dresses and emptying her chamber pots.

that she lied in the trial is ugly but I understand why, having a shitty childhood doesn't excuse things it explains them. Understanding the character changes the way things seem in the text. I'd just encourage people to think beyond what tyrion thinks and feels in his POV's.

We do this with lots of other POV's When we re read and look closely and question what each narrator is telling us, sometimes different POV's give us differing takes on the same events and we see clearly how the author wants us to think about the characters. As fallible and not always reliable, so we the reader have to think hard about the story.

We don't know that Shae thinks or acts in the way I have presented as possible. But I would like people to think if this might make sense when we look at the text.

The Lannisters always pay their debts has double meaning too, yes they are wealthy, but they are also ruthless. The words can mean careful now, don't cross us we will get you. If you only ever take the first or obvious interpretation you miss the nuanced possibilities.

When people take the Omgsheissuchagolddiggingwhoreshetotesdeservedtodiethegreedylyingslag approach to her character it annoys me, because its really not as simple as that at all. We feel tyrions pain because we see it through his eyes. I'm saying stop doing that and start putting yourself in her shoes and ask yourself a few questions. I'd hope people go away from that with a better understanding of where Shae may have been coming from.

I am finding it amusing how so many throw She has no empathy for others at her, whilst completely refusing to consider trying to empathise with Shae.

[Jasta11]

Cersei had Shae locked in a cell when Shae agreed to testify. That is clearly threatening her by itself, even in the unlikely event Cersei never actually made any verbal threats. And while Cersei may have promised a reward, she never actually gave it .

And even so, why then Shae humiliate Tyrion that much? I doubt Cercei went to her and gave her a script. She could have stretched the truth a lot; Tyrion did hate Joffrey and all that jazz. But unraveling Tyrion's secrets in public when she perfectly knows he has lots of issues with them? That's a low blow no matter what. Combined to what Shae says of Lollys, it doesn't paint a very good picture of her, even if again she didn't deserve to be murdered.

[David Selig]

3. Like I said previously, ambition and trying to better yourself and your prospects is not a bad thing at all. I don't fault Shae for wanting a better life for herself, I just fault her for what she was willing to do to secure it. As readers, Shae doesn't have the luxury of knowing what we know, but I think you and I can agree that her chances of getting what she wanted were much higher if she threw her lot in with Tyrion as opposed to Cersei. The circumstances were screwed up, but for all of Tyrion's faults, I just can't believe that he was going to leave her out in the cold with nothing.

What? Tyrion was about to be convicted of regicide and executed. How was Shae supposed to predict that he would get out of the cell somehow and come across her against all odds? Her chance of getting what she wanted were way higher than from Tyrion at the time when she made the decision to testify.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1. True, we know nothing about the context of their meeting. Therefore, I'll just assume she was a whore gleefully doing a whore's job instead of subscribing to some insane theory that she was there for any other reason like being drugged planted there by Varys or some such crackpot.

2. You're right, Shae probably didn't have a choice in meeting with Tywin. Even so, I'll never believe she wasn't thrilled at the prospect of getting with him. Tywin can be pretty petty, but I don't know if I can believe he f*cked Shae in an attempt to get back at Tyrion. What is he getting back at him for, exactly?

3. Like I said previously, ambition and trying to better yourself and your prospects is not a bad thing at all. I don't fault Shae for wanting a better life for herself, I just fault her for what she was willing to do to secure it. As readers, Shae doesn't have the luxury of knowing what we know, but I think you and I can agree that her chances of getting what she wanted were much higher if she threw her lot in with Tyrion as opposed to Cersei. The circumstances were screwed up, but for all of Tyrion's faults, I just can't believe that he was going to leave her out in the cold with nothing. Had she not testified(wasn't ultimately her choice, I'm sure), Tyrion likely would've asked Varys to give her all that he promised her during his escape because he still would've had a very rosy picture of her in his mind. It's all very unfortunate.

4. Tell that to Hoster and Brynded Tully.

5. Fair enough.

I think that rather than trying to get back at Tyrion for something, Tywin was getting a sexual kick out of screwing the woman his son loved. Not everyone has nice sexual appetites.

i just don't think we can assume he would have paid her eventually, I can't help thinking he withheld payment in order to keep her there, not deliberately as a scheme but subconsciously. But either way Shae had no reason to believe he would pay out if she left. He certainly never said so to her.

Hoster was the head of Byndens family, he had the right in Westeros to tell him to wed. Brynden refused and was sent to Coventry for it.

[Cas Stark]

We see a lot of Shae directly in her actual exchanges with Tyrion and the words she says. Unless we believe that Tyrion's thought process is deluded and so the dialogue he's hearing is not what she has said there is a fair amount of direct evidence that does not come filtered through Tyrion.

[GallantGambler]

The thing I object to is people making out she duped him and deserved it.

This idea she was reaching above her station and got burnt for it. Its so distasteful, and that she ought to have grovelled to him about how lucky she was to be safe scrubbing Lolly's dresses and emptying her chamber pots.

that she lied in the trial is ugly but I understand why, having a shitty childhood doesn't excuse things it explains them. Understanding the character changes the way things seem in the text. I'd just encourage people to think beyond what tyrion thinks and feels in his POV's.

We do this with lots of other POV's When we re read and look closely and question what each narrator is telling us, sometimes different POV's give us differing takes on the same events and we see clearly how the author wants us to think about the characters. As fallible and not always reliable, so we the reader have to think hard about the story.

We don't know that Shae thinks or acts in the way I have presented as possible. But I would like people to think if this might make sense when we look at the text.

The Lannisters always pay their debts has double meaning too, yes they are wealthy, but they are also ruthless. The words can mean careful now, don't cross us we will get you. If you only ever take the first or obvious interpretation you miss the nuanced possibilities.

When people take the Omgsheissuchagolddiggingwhoreshetotesdeservedtodiethegreedylyingslag approach to her character it annoys me, because its really not as simple as that at all. We feel tyrions pain because we see it through his eyes. I'm saying stop doing that and start putting yourself in her shoes and ask yourself a few questions. I'd hope people go away from that with a better understanding of where Shae may have been coming from.

I am finding it amusing how so many throw She has no empathy for others at her, whilst completely refusing to consider trying to empathise with Shae.

No one is demanding that Shae grovel at his feet 24/7, but a moment or two consisting of something other that her "I want more" attitude would've gone a long way.

[Dany Girl]

The thing I object to is people making out she duped him and deserved it.

This idea she was reaching above her station and got burnt for it. Its so distasteful, and that she ought to have grovelled to him about how lucky she was to be safe scrubbing Lolly's dresses and emptying her chamber pots.

that she lied in the trial is ugly but I understand why, having a shitty childhood doesn't excuse things it explains them. Understanding the character changes the way things seem in the text. I'd just encourage people to think beyond what tyrion thinks and feels in his POV's.

We do this with lots of other POV's When we re read and look closely and question what each narrator is telling us, sometimes different POV's give us differing takes on the same events and we see clearly how the author wants us to think about the characters. As fallible and not always reliable, so we the reader have to think hard about the story.

We don't know that Shae thinks or acts in the way I have presented as possible. But I would like people to think if this might make sense when we look at the text.

The Lannisters always pay their debts has double meaning too, yes they are wealthy, but they are also ruthless. The words can mean careful now, don't cross us we will get you. If you only ever take the first or obvious interpretation you miss the nuanced possibilities.

When people take the Omgsheissuchagolddiggingwhoreshetotesdeservedtodiethegreedylyingslag approach to her character it annoys me, because its really not as simple as that at all. We feel tyrions pain because we see it through his eyes. I'm saying stop doing that and start putting yourself in her shoes and ask yourself a few questions. I'd hope people go away from that with a better understanding of where Shae may have been coming from.

I am finding it amusing how so many throw She has no empathy for others at her, whilst completely refusing to consider trying to empathise with Shae.

:agree: once again. Seems like were on the same page regarding Shea :cheers:

It's sad to me that people completely write her off as a "horrible" person without giving even 1 moment to think about her side of things. She's a girl with a terrible past who has a chance to get somewhere, then it gets taken away and she gets murdered. It's a tragic story IMO.

No, she might not have been the nicest, but niceness comes from having people be nice to you. Think about dogs, dogs that are constantly kicked and abused turn vicious, well, so do people. We have Sandor as an example of a broken man with a tough, non- caring demeanor, but we know he's capable of kindness by the way he tries to protect Sansa.

[GallantGambler]

What? Tyrion was about to be convicted of regicide and executed. How was Shae supposed to predict that he would get out of the cell somehow and come across her against all odds? Her chance of getting what she wanted were way higher than from Tyrion at the time when she made the decision to testify.

My bad. When I was talking about who Shae was better off trusting in, I meant that as part of "the reader knows more" bit and the unfortunate circumstances. I think I phrased that a bit poorly. Either way, my point was that if you cast the trial aside, If I'm Shae I'm rolling the dice on Tyrion giving me what I want instead of Cersei. One is wrapped around Shae's finger and the other is totally batsh*t, if Shae ever listened to anything Tyrion said outside of his promises to her.

[Jasta11]

:agree: once again. Seems like were on the same page regarding Shea :cheers:

It's sad to me that people completely write her off as a "horrible" person without giving even 1 moment to think about her side of things. She's a girl with a terrible past who has a chance to get somewhere, then it gets taken away and she gets murdered. It's a tragic story IMO.

No, she might not have been the nicest, but niceness comes from having people be nice to you. Think about dogs, dogs that are constantly kicked and abused turn vicious, well, so do people. We have Sandor as an example of a broken man with a tough, non- caring demeanor, but we know he's capable of kindness by the way he tries to protect Sansa.

It's not mutually exclusive, you know. You can understand she's had a rough life yet believe it's no excuse for being such a selfish person and kicking Tyrion while he's down. There are several characters in these books that had it rough (Brienne, Sam, Davos, Septon Meribald, Missandrei, among others) yet they are a far cry from being like Shae. So I don't consider it a valid excuse at all. You don't get a free pass to be a victimizer because you were a victim.

[GallantGambler]

I don't feel sorry for Shae. I'm just not one to use someone's past as justification for all the morally bankrupt decisions they make. If a character having a sad childhood means they can do whatever they want with no consequences, we'd all be arguing in circles forever for our favorites and no one would ever be wrong.

[Cas Stark]

:agree: once again. Seems like were on the same page regarding Shea :cheers:

It's sad to me that people completely write her off as a "horrible" person without giving even 1 moment to think about her side of things. She's a girl with a terrible past who has a chance to get somewhere, then it gets taken away and she gets murdered. It's a tragic story IMO.

No, she might not have been the nicest, but niceness comes from having people be nice to you. Think about dogs, dogs that are constantly kicked and abused turn vicious, well, so do people. We have Sandor as an example of a broken man with a tough, non- caring demeanor, but we know he's capable of kindness by the way he tries to protect Sansa.

Who does Shae try to protect? Oh right. No one. Who is Shae kind to? No one again.

You feel sorry for her because of her childhood. Fine.

But, you go on to create a whole series of speculations in order to excuse and diminish all the rest of her negative behavior, such as OMG Tyrion didn't pay her and wasn't going to pay her, for which there is scant to no evidence

We know exactly why he took the jewels and gowns away. We do not know if this was "all" she got in payment, but even if it was, we know that this was her own fault for not listening to good advice.

We know that whenever he brings up her leaving for her own safety, she talks him out of it...she doesn't agree and bring up how she needs the payment..she talks him out of it because she sees him as her meal ticket. She doesn't want to go because she knows the odds of finding another super rich guy who falls in love with her and showers her with jewels and gifts are slim to none.

Yet somehow this is translated into Shae not being paid, rather than having the jewels withheld from her for her own safety, and on to Shae "never" being paid, which is ridiculous and completely out of character for Tyrion.

[Dany Girl]

It's not mutually exclusive, you know. You can understand she's had a rough life yet believe it's no excuse for being such a selfish person and kicking Tyrion while he's down. There are several characters in these books that had it rough (Brienne, Sam, Davos, Septon Meribald, Missandrei, among others) yet they are a far cry from being like Shae. So I don't consider it a valid excuse at all. You don't get a free pass to be a victimizer because you were a victim.

No one, especially not me, has said her behavior at the trial was acceptable, just understandable.

Understandable=/=acceptable.

It was terrible. As was her talk about Lollys. I just get where she's coming from and empathize with her situation.

**funnily enough I've used that same argument against Tyrion

[Jory Cassel]

We know that whenever he brings up her leaving for her own safety, she talks him out of it...she doesn't agree and bring up how she needs the payment..she talks him out of it because she sees him as her meal ticket. She doesn't want to go because she knows the odds of finding another super rich guy who falls in love with her and showers her with jewels and gifts are slim to none.

Had he truly wanted her to leave for her own safety, all he had to do was pay her and stop taking her services. And as his knowledge regarding threats to her was much greater than her's, that's exactly what he should've done.

Yet somehow this is translated into Shae not being paid, rather than having the jewels withheld from her for her own safety, and on to Shae "never" being paid, which is ridiculous and completely out of character for Tyrion.

How are these mutually exclusive?

[Cas Stark]

Had he truly wanted her to leave for her own safety, all he had to do was pay her and stop taking her services. And as his knowledge regarding threats to her was much greater than her's, that's exactly what he should've done.

How are these mutually exclusive? Payment was withheld for her own safety, only that the largest threat to her derives from her association with Tyrion.

He doesn't want her to go, obviously, but that wasn't my point. My point was that SHE does not want to go, and that when he brings her leaving up, she doesn't agree, and remind him she will need money, she talks him out of.

It goes without saying he should have sent her away, shouldn't have deluded himself about what was really going on, or let all of the red flags regarding her behavior go by either.

On this thread the constant refrain has been that 'poor Shae' wasn't even paid for her sex work, which isn't true. She WAS paid. She was paid extremely well, much better paid that she should have expected. It was only due to her failure to act with common sense, that part of her payment was taken out of her hands so she couldn't hurt herself with it and held for her. Much more akin to someone's money being put in trust because they're an addict than the OMG not paid!!!! poor Shae, she only testified against him to get her rightful payment BS. Your payment being held in trust for you until it's safe for you to have it isn't the same as 'not being paid' and also, to restate, this only happened because she wouldn't listen to Tyrion.