Tyrion & Shae

[Mikkel]

This is some weak stuff even if it were true, which it isn't. Nothing Shae could have truthfully said would have 'muddied' the verdict in the slightest. She knew nothing that could cast even a shadow of doubt on the really important testimony.


Do you want me to give you a list of characters equally guilty of this 'scumbag move'? Because we both know it would be a very long post indeed...

As for 'whitewashing', I agree. But blackwashing is just as bad. Shae is being blamed for giving critical evidence that wasn't critical, about an innocent man she couldn't know was innocent, in a trial where people were lining up to do the same, but strangely none of them are being criticised for it. She's guilty of what she did: the degree of blame she's receiving is another matter.

I didn't say it would muddy the verdict (as I said, it was a foregone conclusion) I said it would muddy the legitimacy of that verdict.

ASOIAF indeed has no shortage of scumbags, but that doesn't make Shae less a scumbag, it just means she's not the only one - as I said earlier, her behavior is pretty par-for-the-course in Westeros. It's still wrong though.

I really don't buy the "she didn't know he was innocent" argument though. She knew the vast majority of her testimony was abject lies, and she has no actual proof of Tyrion's guilt to give - because there isn't any. It really doesn't float that she might have thought Tyrion was guilty, because even if she did, and even if she cared in the least about justice (unlikely), making up lies in a trial is just wrong - there's really no other side to it. When it's done in the name of self-advancement and greed, that just makes it even more despicable. Again, other people doing the same thing doesn't really change what Shae does, and this thread is about her (and her "relationship" with Tyrion) not about what crimes other people may have committed against Tyrion.

I'm not sure why it matters that much whether her (false, disgusting, insulting and demeaning) evidence was "critical", Cersei and Tywin must've thought it had value, or they wouldn't have bothered to bring her to court at all.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

But your use is wrong... When you say she is a Gold digger you imply Tyrion was duped by a calculating woman who fooled him into thinking she loved him and he had no idea she was simply in it for the money. That is what Gold diggers do.

A prostitute is honest about what she is in it for, Shea never lied in that regard she even reminds him several times she is a whore. NOT his lover.

This I have an issue with because, when you say it like that it implies that she deceived Tyrion and he had no idea she never loved him, he knows what she is. She is not manipulating him into giving her those things by pretending to love him. He gives them in lieu of cash as he wants to pretend, he tells her he wants to pretend and she agree's to do that for him.

Her being unhappy that he took away the payment is totally legit, her wanting to be paid for her work is totally legit, her wanting to remain above the station of camp follower is totally legit.

[Dany Girl]

The difference between Shae and Tyrion is that Tyrion has, on more than one occasion shown compassion, generosity and has helped other people. Shae has never shown any compassion for anyone and never done anything that didn't help Shae.

We have a very limited view of Shea to say she lacks all compassion and generosity. We have no idea who the real Shea is, so I'm uncomfortable with classifying her as a "shitty human". We only know Tyrion's "girlfriend" version of her, which is what he's "paying" her for.

Weirwood Eyes and I have already spoken about her reaction to Lollys plight. Yes it was mean, but I for one get where she's coming from. It's like a person who loses 1 eye complaining to a blind man. The blind man will likely think the 1 eyed man should just get over it because he at least has 1 eye where the blind man has none.

And the idea that she's a shitty person because she's trying for a better life for herself is not only laughable but kind of disgusting. She has every right to want to advance her position, and every right to want the stuff she earned. I hope the person who said that would be happy living off minimum wage their whole life and would never attempt to find a better job. With those silks and jewels Shea could have set herself up anywhere in the world as a high class courtesan vs just a lowly whore. There's a big difference in the life of one of Chayta's girls or a Braavosi Courtesan vs a camp follower.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Also how is she greedy, are you greedy for expecting a pay check each month for your job?

[GallantGambler]

ASOIAF is filled with shitty human beings (the beknighted Tyrion included) so let's not pretend Shae did anything that was especially deserving of death. Her true crime was she hurt Tyrion's feelings and bruised his fragile ego and that is why he killed her.

I don't believe Shae's murder was justified. I stated just that in my first post in this thread. And if you equate "hurting Tyrion's feelings" with sentencing him to death through audaciously false testimony and public shaming, I can't really trust your objectivity in this debate.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Exactly DanyGirl.

[Dany Girl]

Also how is she greedy, are you greedy for expecting a pay check each month for your job?

Guess I'm greedy then, cuz I quit a job when my employer tried to stiff me on pay!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yup I've done that too.

[Mikkel]

Guess I'm greedy then, cuz I quit a job when my employer tried to stiff me on pay!

You quit the job? What? You didn't frame your previous employer for murder, then humiliated him or her in court? But that's such a completely reasonable response to disagreements over pay!

[BlackStark]

I don't believe Shae's murder was justified. I stated just that in my first post in this thread. And if you equate "hurting Tyrion's feelings" with sentencing him to death through audaciously false testimony and public shaming, I can't really trust your objectivity in this debate.

I don't believe her testimony would have be the driving factor in convicting him had the trial reached its conclusion...Varys, Cersei, and Pycelle's testimony was far more damaging. In addition, the verdict of the trial was never really in doubt as Tywin and Mace were already predisposed to convicting him. Ultimately because Tyrion chose trial by combat, what she said during the trial had no impact on him being found guilty. All that leaves is the public shaming and humiliation of his "Giant" or lack thereof stature.

[David Selig]

The difference between Shae and Tyrion is that Tyrion has, on more than one occasion shown compassion, generosity and has helped other people. Shae has never shown any compassion for anyone and never done anything that didn't help Shae.

But she also hasn't committed multiple murders and all the other crimes which Tyrion has. And she is a minor character without a PoV who hasn't had much of a chance to show compassion or any positive qualities.

Yes, the way she talked about Llolis was disgusting, but the same can be said about the "compassionate" Tyrion. And let's not kid ourselves, if he was in Shae's position, he'd have committed perjury in a nanosecond and enjoyed publicly humiliating her.

[Mikkel]

I don't believe her testimony would have be the driving factor in convicting him had the trial reached its conclusion...Varys, Cersei, and Pycelle's testimony was far more damaging. In addition, the verdict of the trial was never really in doubt as Tywin and Mace were already predisposed to convicting him. Ultimately because Tyrion chose trial by combat, what she said during the trial had no impact on him being found guilty. All that leaves is the public shaming and humiliation.

Tyrion was forced to choose trial by combat, because the actual trial was a sham. A fair trial would have acquitted him of course - and yeah, nobody said her testimony swung the vote, but it's still disgusting, and I reiterate: if it had so little value, why did Cersei and Tywin bother bringing Shae into the equation at all? My guess is because all the false evidence together added up to enough dirt that the travesty of a trial could retain a semblance of justice, and Shae's testimony was a part of that.

[GallantGambler]

We have a very limited view of Shea to say she lacks all compassion and generosity. We have no idea who the real Shea is, so I'm uncomfortable with classifying her as a "shitty human". We only know Tyrion's "girlfriend" version of her, which is what he's "paying" her for.

Weirwood Eyes and I have already spoken about her reaction to Lollys plight. Yes it was mean, but I for one get where she's coming from. It's like a person who loses 1 eye complaining to a blind man. The blind man will likely think the 1 eyed man should just get over it because he at least has 1 eye where the blind man has none.

And the idea that she's a shitty person because she's trying for a better life for herself is not only laughable but kind of disgusting. She has every right to want to advance her position, and every right to want the stuff she earned. I hope the person who said that would be happy living off minimum wage their whole life and would never attempt to find a better job. With those silks and jewels Shea could have set herself up anywhere in the world as a high class courtesan vs just a lowly whore. There's a big difference in the life of one of Chayta's girls or a Braavosi Courtesan vs a camp follower.

I was the one who said that and I stand by it. Ambition by itself is a good thing, and of course I'd like to move up in the world, but I want to do it by honest means. Not by being an asshole that steps on others and destroys their lives in the pursuit of personal profit. The point that you've seemed to be ignoring this entire thread is that the only problem most people seem to have with Shae is that she grossly lied in a trial in which an innocent man was going to be sentenced to death. I wonder how differently you'd feel about Shae if Sansa was in chains next to Tyrion at that trial and she was still spitting that bullsh*t about hearing them collude to kill Joffrey.

I'm not sitting here defending Tyrion. His level of mope in ASOS is disgustingly overblown up until the trial. He's seething that no one appreciates what he did during the Blackwater(which is fair to an extent), but he neglects to accept that KL was screwed either way until Tywin showed up. His ignoring that tiny yet crucial detail is very annoying to me. Even so, no matter what Tyrion did or didn't for Shae isn't enough to sentence him to death, the same way he had no right to kill her, which was my very first sentence in this thread.

[Woman of War]

As arguments go, that... just doesn't.As I say, there's ample reason to suppose Shae might've thought Tyrion was guilty. Against that, there's... some sort of hunch about her being too 'over the top'? Pretty unpersuasive, I'm afraid.

Why should she think that Tyrion is guilty? Why should she have thought that Sansa is guilty? Actually she must have been aware that Tyrion and Sansa barely talked and for sure not plotted together. She was consciously lying, she had no reason to believe Tyrion and Sansa guilty based on any facts.

And even if she believed in the possibility that Tyrion might be guilty: as witness she was supposed to tell only what she has heard and seen with certainty. No witness is entitled to mix his personal assumptions with facts. And why should she believe Tyrion to be guilty? She had no more or less reason for it than anyone else in KL: the vile abomination does not like the king so it must have been him.

How can you even defend a testimony based on vague assumptions and prejudices, even if Shae had been quite convinced of Tyrion's and Sansa's guilt from her perspective: she was in no way entitled to make up a testimony.

We can find explanations why Shae was the person she was and we can try to understand her but we can never justify her testimony as having been the right thing to do. The witness that plays god is thoroughly wrong.

Shae undoubtedly knows that Tyrion hated Joff, and that the feeling was mutual. She knows from experience that Tyrion is ruthless and capable of ordering as well as committing violence. She may well suspect his involvement in the disappearance of her favourite singer, apparently from jealousy. She knows nothing to suggest Tyrion's innocence, and could very reasonably believe that he is guilty.

basic knowledge: it is the task of the jury to prove guilt, not the task of the accused to prove his innocence. And it is for sure not the task of a witness to speak the verdict. That thinking from you is the perversion of any idea about fair trial, the justification of a twisted law system in any totalitarian dictatorship. "They can be guilty, we want them guilty, therefore they are guilty."

We can see that the system of Westeros is totally corrupt but you have a general idea about justifying certain law procedures in court that is, frankly, shocking to me. And this goes far, far, beyond my in a way existing sympathy for Shae the survivor who gambled and lost.

As someone above wrote: if the accused had been the cook: would Shae have been in the right to invent all kinds of stories about his guilt based on the vague assumption that he might have been the one who did the deed? Because she owed him nothing?

[Cas Stark]

We have a very limited view of Shea to say she lacks all compassion and generosity. We have no idea who the real Shea is, so I'm uncomfortable with classifying her as a "shitty human". We only know Tyrion's "girlfriend" version of her, which is what he's "paying" her for.

Weirwood Eyes and I have already spoken about her reaction to Lollys plight. Yes it was mean, but I for one get where she's coming from. It's like a person who loses 1 eye complaining to a blind man. The blind man will likely think the 1 eyed man should just get over it because he at least has 1 eye where the blind man has none.

And the idea that she's a shitty person because she's trying for a better life for herself is not only laughable but kind of disgusting. She has every right to want to advance her position, and every right to want the stuff she earned. I hope the person who said that would be happy living off minimum wage their whole life and would never attempt to find a better job. With those silks and jewels Shea could have set herself up anywhere in the world as a high class courtesan vs just a lowly whore. There's a big difference in the life of one of Chayta's girls or a Braavosi Courtesan vs a camp follower.

You can make excuses for her having no sympathy for a gang rape victim if you want to, I'm not interested in doing that. It shows exactly what kind of person she is, and her having a bad and abusive childhood doesn't mean that she was destined to turn into a mean, lying, selfish bitch who lacks any empathy.

And if you want to equate, again, 'better herself' with being incredibly greedy and ungrateful for what Tyrion has given her and the position of safety she now occupies in a war torn country, again, be my guest, I'm not.

And lastly, if you think that it's okay to make out multiple outragious lies in a life or death criminal trial as your best means of 'bettering yourself' then have at it, I am not.

Shae is a bad person. Everything in the books points to this. Of course we could fabricate a speculative inner life for her that the author didn't give her and turn her into a martyr if we want to. I don't.

[Mikkel]

Finding Shae's actions disgusting and wrong (1) are not at all the same as saying she deserved death (2), those are two very different opinions. Nor are they the same as saying Tyrion did nothing wrong (3), again that's something else.

edit: that was aimed at noone in particular, but there seems to be a number of people who have trouble separating these things, arguing that if you think 1) you must also think 2) and/or 3). I'm not giving examples - if you think I'm talking about you, I probably am, if not - well, not.

[GallantGambler]

I don't believe her testimony would have be the driving factor in convicting him had the trial reached its conclusion...Varys, Cersei, and Pycelle's testimony was far more damaging. In addition, the verdict of the trial was never really in doubt as Tywin and Mace were already predisposed to convicting him. Ultimately because Tyrion chose trial by combat, what she said during the trial had no impact on him being found guilty. All that leaves is the public shaming and humiliation of his "Giant" or lack thereof stature.

That doesn't make what she had to say any more righteous or acceptable. And if her testimony wasn't going to add sway the verdict in any one direction, why couldn't she have told the truth instead? Better yet, why did Tywin and Cersei even call her up on the stand at all?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

You quit the job? What? You didn't frame your previous employer for murder, then humiliated him or her in court? But that's such a completely reasonable response to disagreements over pay!

But She didn't frame him, Cersei framed him Shae lied to get recompense for over a year and a half's wages in the trial of a man who was as good as dead already. He was stitched up good and proper before Shae opened her mouth.

And besides that the objection from Myself and DanyGirl has been that people call her greedy for wanting to be paid for her work. I don't see how her involvement in the trial negates that its not greedy to want paying for your job.

[Mirri Maz Durr]

Shae was ambitious. She saw her opportunity and took it.

[Cas Stark]

Finding Shae's actions disgusting and wrong are not at all the same as saying she deserved death, those are two very different opinions. Nor are they the same as saying Tyrion did nothing wrong, again that's something else.

This appears to be an impossible concept for many people to grasp, if this thread is any indication.