Tyrion & Shae

[Jory Cassel]

If Tyrion felt betrayed, manipulated, or mocked, it was his fault he bought into a fantasy he himself orchestrated...Shae never deceived him about the nature of their relationship and even his description of their interactions make it clear what her motivating factors were: money, not love.

Honestly, I don't see how the fact that he was sentenced to die for being innocent serves as a justification or excuse for his horrible acts. How much regard has Tyrion shown for all the innocent people that died by his actions (and that of his family) in order to preserve the fiction that Joffery, Myrcella, and Tommen are heirs to the Iron Throne? Not much. You could argue he was merely protecting and advancing himself and his family which would be in part true but the same is also true of Shae...she was merely trying to protecting herself.

Word.

I also find it quite amusing that Tyrion having her work without pay and taking away the received pay is excused with keeping her safe when the main danger to her safety, namely Cersei and Tywin, derives from her working for Tyrion and her association with him it involves .

[Cas Stark]

Maybe Cersei didnt need to threaten her at all? She is a whore. Paying her some gold should be enough.

Sure, she was payed to act as if she loved him. And he thought she would really love him. That's not her fault.

But Shae has worked for Tyrion and as soon as things turned against him, she changed quickly the side and betrayed him in a trial that could easily sentence Tyrion to death. Additionally, when Tyrion found her, she didnt look guilty, even tried to gain his love back as if nothing had happened.

He didnt plan her out of hatred. He hated her betrayal, yes. But when he found her in Tywin's bed, he was mainly suprised, I think. And then she called him with a name that is insulting and humiliating for him. Of course he became angry. And killed her out of rage.

Also, Shae could have left KL anytime. But she chose to stay because of money. And she betrayed him for money. I dont blame Tyrion for what he has done.

I agree.

Of course, Cersei wouldn't hesitate to threaten Shae. But, why would she need to? Shae has demonstrated she has no empathy and is motivated solely by money. With Tyrion arrested she knows she's never getting her jewels or gowns or money from him. Cersei, however, can reward her very handsomely for giving the testimony she wants to hear. It is completely in keeping with Shae's character that she willingly turned on Tyrion in return for money and knowing that he was now doomed and so could not help her in any way.

I don't think this justifies her murder, but, I reject again the idea of Shae as the victim, poor Shae, she would never have betrayed Tyrion if she wasn't threatened. BS. She would betray him in a heartbeat for a better offer. Which is exactly what she did.

[4th Dragon Head]

Why do people always talk about innocent people/ smallfolk that died because of Tyrion? What did he ever do to the small folk?

He protected their city with his chain and the wildfire, and unlike Cercei and Tywin he seems to care about them somewhat (at least as much as a regular lord)

The only people I remember him killing were in the heat of battle, and those people were also trying to kill him. If you are talking about arming the mountain clans, he had to in order to stay alive. And why should he be worried about the lords of the Vale, they also imprisoned him and tried to condemn him to die for a crime he didn't commit.

He forced the small folk living adjacent to the wall to move, but that was only as a measure to protect the city. He didn't seem malicious towards them or any small folk that I recall.

[Dany Girl]

Why do people always talk about innocent people/ smallfolk that died because of Tyrion? What did he ever do to the small folk?

He protected their city with his chain and the wildfire, and unlike Cercei and Tywin he seems to care about them somewhat (at least as much as a regular lord)

The only people I remember him killing were in the heat of battle, and those people were also trying to kill him. If you are talking about arming the mountain clans, he had to in order to stay alive. And why should he be worried about the lords of the Vale, they also imprisoned him and tried to condemn him to die for a crime he didn't commit.

He forced the small folk living adjacent to the wall to move, but that was only as a measure to protect the city. He didn't seem malicious towards them or any small folk that I recall.

Well for one thing he's directly responsible for any death the Veil mountain clans inflict upon the smallfolk due to his direct action of giving them good weapons. He was mad at Lysa, so now smallfolk are dying.

[4th Dragon Head]

You could say that about almost any lord ever in war. The people of the westerlands probably got killed and raped because of Robb Stark, small folk get killed all the time, because of every lord and his/her actions. I don't think Tyrion felt any more disregard for them than anyone else.

Also, what was he supposed to do? Say " ok mountain clans, I don't want the small folk to die bc of me, so I guess I'll let you kill Bronn and I'll become your jester/fool (which was their plan)"...

He did what he had to do, he made promises so that they didn't kill him, and he made good on those promises bc a Lannister pays his debts. He knew that was the only way that he would be allowed to live and get out of the Vale, so that's what he did

[Mikkel]

I don't think this justifies her murder, but, I reject again the idea of Shae as the victim, poor Shae, she would never have betrayed Tyrion if she wasn't threatened. BS. She would betray him in a heartbeat for a better offer. Which is exactly what she did.

I fully agree, Shae didn't do what she did with the headsman's axe hanging over her head, she did it with a favorable marriage and a mansion in sight. Which is what it is: cutthroat, but just about par-for-the-course in Westeros. It just happens that Shae misjudged exactly what her actions did to Tyrion, and so she played it all wrong at the fateful reunion during Tyrion's escape, result: dead Shae (and emotionally destroyed Tyrion, but Shae's only a small part of that).

[BlackStark]

Why do people always talk about innocent people/ smallfolk that died because of Tyrion? What did he ever do to the small folk?

He protected their city with his chain and the wildfire, and unlike Cercei and Tywin he seems to care about them somewhat (at least as much as a regular lord)

The only people I remember him killing were in the heat of battle, and those people were also trying to kill him. If you are talking about arming the mountain clans, he had to in order to stay alive. And why should he be worried about the lords of the Vale, they also imprisoned him and tried to condemn him to die for a crime he didn't commit.

He forced the small folk living adjacent to the wall to move, but that was only as a measure to protect the city. He didn't seem malicious towards them or any small folk that I recall.

Protected their city? Or protected the power of the Lannisters? Stannis has no quarrel with the people of King's Landing and the only reason they face any danger is because of the lie Tyrion is fighting to preserve and the power that lie accords him.

[Jory Cassel]

Despite his talk to do justice in King's Landing, he has remarkably little concern to give those supporting the lawful king to Joffrey to be tortured and killed.

He did what he had to do, he made promises so that they didn't kill him, and he made good on those promises bc a Lannister pays his debts. He knew that was the only way that he would be allowed to live and get out of the Vale, so that's what he did

Like the promise to return Sansa and Arya in case Jaime was returned, even though he did not have the slightest inkling where Arya was? seems legit.

[ghosts in winterfell]

For the people saying she "betrayed" Tyrion by testifying against him, she hardly stands alone in doing so. Shae wasn't the only one telling boldfaced lies at Tyrion's trial.

[Cas Stark]

I fully agree, Shae didn't do what she did with the headsman's axe hanging over her head, she did it with a favorable marriage and a mansion in sight. Which is what it is: cutthroat, but just about par-for-the-course in Westeros. It just happens that Shae misjudged exactly what her actions did to Tyrion, and so she played it all wrong at the fateful reunion during Tyrion's escape, result: dead Shae (and emotionally destroyed Tyrion, but Shae's only a small part of that).

Yep. And the very fact of the huge pay off she was getting from Cersei argues against any threat of violence. If she testified for fear of death or torture, she wouldn't be getting such a huge reward. This was all carrot, the stick never was needed. If anything the grandness of what she was getting out of it argues on behalf of her having negotiated it.

It's true that Shae's life has been hard, but the series goes to a lot of effort to show the varied and realistic reactions to tragedy, some are hardened by it, like Shae, some destroyed, and some rise above it and retain kindness and humanity. The fact of a sickening childhood doesn't absolve her of a lack of any shred of empathy as an adult.

[BlackStark]

You could say that about almost any lord ever in war. The people of the westerlands probably got killed and raped because of Robb Stark, small folk get killed all the time, because of every lord and his/her actions. I don't think Tyrion felt any more disregard for them than anyone else.

Also, what was he supposed to do? Say " ok mountain clans, I don't want the small folk to die bc of me, so I guess I'll let you kill Bronn and I'll become your jester/fool (which was their plan)"...

He did what he had to do, he made promises so that they didn't kill him, and he made good on those promises bc a Lannister pays his debts. He knew that was the only way that he would be allowed to live and get out of the Vale, so that's what he did

Given his reaction to the fate of Masha Heddle, I think it could be said he took more than a little delight in what befell the smallfolk of the Riverlands who were raped, maimed, and murdered at the hands of his father's forces.

[BlackStark]

Yep. And the very fact of the huge pay off she was getting from Cersei argues against any threat of violence. If she testified for fear of death or torture, she wouldn't be getting such a huge reward. This was all carrot, the stick never was needed. If anything the grandness of what she was getting out of it argues on behalf of her having negotiated it.

It's true that Shae's life has been hard, but the series goes to a lot of effort to show the varied and realistic reactions to tragedy, some are hardened by it, like Shae, some destroyed, and some rise above it and retain kindness and humanity. The fact of a sickening childhood doesn't absolve her of a lack of any shred of empathy as an adult.

Yep. And the very fact of the huge pay off she was getting from Cersei argues against any threat of violence. If she testified for fear of death or torture, she wouldn't be getting such a huge reward. This was all carrot, the stick never was needed. If anything the grandness of what she was getting out of it argues on behalf of her having negotiated it.

It's true that Shae's life has been hard, but the series goes to a lot of effort to show the varied and realistic reactions to tragedy, some are hardened by it, like Shae, some destroyed, and some rise above it and retain kindness and humanity. The fact of a sickening childhood doesn't absolve her of a lack of any shred of empathy as an adult.

The fact that she is servicing Tywin when Tyrion finds her leads me to believe that there has been no huge payoff yet nor would there be one in the near future. If there were, why is she still working?

[Jory Cassel]

The fact that she is servicing Tywin when Tyrion finds her leads me to believe that there has been no huge payoff yet nor would there be one in the near future. If there were, why is she still working?

she'd hardly be in a position to refuse Tywin, especially considering she knows what he did to Tysha.

[BlackStark]

she'd hardly be in a position to refuse Tywin, especially considering she knows what he did to Tysha.

True but it seems like more of a plot device that those two would come together...of all the whores in King's Landing, Tywin chooses her, especially on the eve of Tyrion's execution?

[jet199]

Since when has humiliating a person been punishable by death? When you were a kid and had your friends round and your mum got out your naked baby pictures you probably felt even more embarrassed than Tyrion but you didn't kill your mum. The truth is that your mum was not the one with the problem, teenage-you needed to get over yourself and/or stop deriving your self-esteem from other people's opinions of you. Tyrion still has this problem, all the Lannisters have pride problems (they're lions obv), and he needs to sort it out. Him falling for Shae and killing her are two sides of the same coin, when she is nice to him he loves her, when she is mean he hates her, he's feelings for her are purely based on what she does for his ego. Shae comes across as a terible person in the trial because it is seem through Tyrion's POV, if you actually look at what she says she is just being stupid and babbling a load of nonsense without much point and she is miserable. Even with the "giant of Lannister" outburst she is confused when people find it funny and thinks they are laughing at her (although I have seen it argued that this is because Shae is some kind of mastermind manipulator but that really is just people bringing their own shit to the books, there is nothing in her character to suggest this and she is telling the truth at this point while she wasn't for most of it).

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Even if she did only receive the offer of a Manse, a Knight and her things returned/the equivalent given. How does that make her wrong, one could argue that she was only asking for from Cersei what Tyrion himself owed her.

As has already been pointed out Tyrion was at that point a dead man walking the trial was a farce and Cersei wanted her brother as broken and humiliated as possible before having him beheaded.

So what if Shea took the promise of getting her owed wages and testified against Tyrion to the effect that Cersei requested.

She didn't Owe him anything.

And yes the fact she was in Tywin's bed does insinuate that Cersei laughed in her face when she asked for the promised payments. Or even worse that Tywin in his twisted perversion wanted to screw the woman his son loved on the eve of his beheading, and she didn't really get an option.

Look I was posting definitions because some people seem to lack a basic knowledge and understanding of what some words mean. It doesn't mean the argument has degenerated into some sort of futile mess, It means I want you to understand why what you are saying is wrong, and why people might take offense at the way you worded things, Saying she is a gold digger implies Tyrion was an innocent who was fooled by a liar. Saying she was a prostitute and that he knew that makes it clear that his delusions were entirely his own doing.

Saying she was his mistress implies she was in a loving sexual relationship which she entered into out of her own desire for the guy, a Courtesan is a high class prostitute which is what she was elevated to by his interest in her. A Mistress does not get paid.... Incidentaly by not paying Shae is it possible Tyrion was adding to his own delusion, she's not even getting paid ergo she MUST really love me. Or By withholding Payment he subconsciously knows she can't really leave.

[Cas Stark]

The fact that she is servicing Tywin when Tyrion finds her leads me to believe that there has been no huge payoff yet nor would there be one in the near future. If there were, why is she still working?

The fact she's wearing the chain of office seems to suggest some level of familiarity and ease between the two...rather than her being there against her will in some way.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Erm or that Tywin on some sort of Power Kick Kink tells her to wear it

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

you do know that Prostitutes are paid to fulfill their clients fantasies quite often, its not always a quick straight shag in the back of his car. Sometimes they get taken to hotel rooms and asked to tie their John up, spank him, wear his business suit whilst they do it etc....

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I didn't like Shae, but her murder was in no way justified.